Thread: Russia: old system - new system

This also sends a message to all the capitalists. I bet they will all run away and abandon all the national property if you do this.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

"socialist paradise", "workers paradise". ...

Guys, Eric in particular; where are you getting this silly terminology from? Nobody here has claimed that modern Belarus or the USSR were a "paradise". (Quotes are supposed to indicate something that somebody has actually said.) No leader of any socialist country made such claims. They knew that they had a very long way to go. I agree with Gromozeka - if this is supposed to be irony, then you are hitting the wrong note. If you are really interested in such things, then read some Marx or Weber and get the terminology right! Otherwise I suggest you pass completely.

The idea of simply rolling back time and bringing the USSR, or even socialism back, is not realistic.
The most important thing is that people in Russia and the CIS countries get governments that are not corrupt and work to improve things for the population as a whole. The ideology is irrelevant, it's the results that count and there is no easy answer or solution. Anyway, the problem is common across the world.

Unfortunately in the world at large, things are moving in the exact opposite direction. Capitalism (large corporations, banks, media empire, defense industry) is getting increasingly greedy, corrupt and aggressive across the world and regular people are just pawns, at best. Traditional socialism never adapted itself to counteract modern capitalism. Socialism was "beaten" because it's opponent, capitalism, was more adaptive and more ruthless.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Guys, Eric in particular; where are you getting this silly terminology from? Nobody here has claimed that modern Belarus or the USSR were a "paradise". (Quotes are supposed to indicate something that somebody has actually said.) No leader of any socialist country made such claims. They knew that they had a very long way to go. I agree with Gromozeka - if this is supposed to be irony, then you are hitting the wrong note. If you are really interested in such things, then read some Marx or Weber and get the terminology right! Otherwise I suggest you pass completely.

I've been borrowing such terminology from those I was talking to. It was not me who first came up with the terms. =))

Originally Posted by Basil77

At least they enjoyed free (and pretty good) medical care ...

Yeah, it was good if they were not very sick.

Originally Posted by Eric C.
"socialist paradise", "workers paradise". ...Where are you getting this silly terminology from?

I got it from Basil. He used the terminology "workers paradise" Look back at his replies.

Socialism was "beaten" because it's opponent, capitalism, was more adaptive and more ruthless

"beaten" hardly. According to the posts it was going strong until everyone got caught by surprise(for 5 years) by some mysterious force. Everyone was pretty happy and doing well. According to Ramil was better then today. So they are worse off now. I am trying to facilitate a return to the happy days. But i am finding this harder then leading a horse to water. They simply wont do it. They have 9 million excuses. You are going in the wrong direction. I advise you turn around.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Yeah, it was good if they were not very sick.

Absolutely right. If they needed some kind of difficult surgery which would cost over $100,000 or even more, they could only get the money and get transferred to one of the countries of Western Europe or the US... Honestly, I don't understand why there're so many people who are dissatisfied with medical insurance system. You work, you carry insurance, you're protected from almost every disease that can be cured. That seems to be the best system ever...

Originally Posted by Eric C.

If they needed some kind of difficult surgery which would cost over $100,000 or even more, they could only get the money and get transferred to one of the countries of Western Europe or the US...

I think you confuse things with post-Soviet period.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

OK, when it was "national property", did your parents really own at least a small part of it? Did they draw any dividends from the state enterprises, and so on?

Actually, they did. They had free healthcare, they could spend 24 days a year on some resort (for free also), people who worked in the north could have even more free days. Children went to school for free, and students even received stipendiums. There was nearly 100% employment. A ride in public transport cost 3-5 kopecks (less than $0.01 by the black market rouble rate). I'd call this rather fair dividends. In fact they received even more than the state could afford in its latter years.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Honestly, I don't understand why there're so many people who are dissatisfied with medical insurance system. You work, you carry insurance, you're protected from almost every disease that can be cured. That seems to be the best system ever...

problem is you work and you're not covered by your employer and private coverage is too expensive. Millions in the US face that problem.

Originally Posted by Nerms

I got it from Basil. He used the terminology "workers paradise" Look back at his replies.

Actually I said that modern Belorussia looks more like "socialist paradise" than "commie hell" as Eric called it. Calling it "hell" is completely retarded, it's not Khmer Rouge regime or North Korea. And the problem in modern Russia is not capitalism itself, but the way it works here. The current owners of most plants and factories don't manage them effectively because they still doesn't feel it's rightfully theirs. They try to make as much money as possible today and transfer it to foreign accounts, they don't invest a kopeck in industry because they still feel it could be taken from them.

Originally Posted by sperk

problem is you work and you're not covered by your employer and private coverage is too expensive. Millions in the US face that problem.

Tens of millions.

Eric, have you ever been there, little hater? "Commie hell" is only in your wet dreams. "Socialist paradise" as say from my impressions .

This is the quote where it started. Ill let it speak for itself.

I say again go back. You are driving in the wrong direction. The US is circling the toliet bowl. Now is the perfect time to rise up and take back your country.

Originally Posted by Nerms

I say again go back. You are driving in the wrong direction. The US is circling the toliet bowl. Now is the perfect time to rise up and take back your country.

If you ask me, I don't mind at all. Especially if we could avoid some of the mistakes the soviets had made in the process. The problem is -- how to do that? We can't just assemble and wish our government surrender their power. ))) Yes, 70% of Russian population is poor, but nealy 90% of Russian industrial and natural resources are owned by 10% of population. Nationalization of private property is a very bad method of starting the new government. Russia had to go through a bloody civil war because of that same decision. If you're so smart, then, perhaps, you know how to accomplish what you are suggesting without bloodshed?

By the way, I called a private medical insurance company (get the insurance from work) for the first time of my life a couple of days ago. What a revolting experience! Feel so sorry for Americans to have to put up with that.
I was so put off by the experience that I decided to use the NHS (state healthcare) after all for this checkup. I keep meaning to use this private insurance but it never seems to make any sense.

Now is the perfect time to rise up and take back your country.

@Nerms -- So are you actually saying you are a communist and you are in favour of a workers revolution against the capital? Hmmm..... Well, good for you
If this is true... please start at home!

That's the "heart" of world capitalism... if you can topple the head of the snake then the rest of the world would follow quickly...And thanks to the Russian experiment you'd have a pretty good idea of some things NOT to do... (and some things which were good and can be used again).

But why worry about Russia when your own country is the most aggressively imperialist & capitalist country on earth? In which millions cannot get decent healthcare or a job and where the government is effectively in the hands of corporate lobbyists, where aggressive wars are started on a regular basis and tax payers money are used to bail out banks and pay the bankers bonus..
So, my dear comrade.. Start the revolutionary struggle on your own side of the Atlantic first..

OMG, what have we reduced to??? =))

Seriously, Hanna, I don't think he's a commie, he's more likely just joking... "revolution against the capital" ? hahaha, that's like a revolution against food, water, air, sure why not, filthy capitalists use them and hide much of that from their poor citizens, but we commies don't even need that at all!!! *LOL*

If you're so smart, then, perhaps, you know how to accomplish what you are suggesting without bloodshed?

I never claimed to be so smart. I gave you a solution above. 5 year plan 10-25% of economy at a time. This gives people a chance to leave without bloodshed....for the most part. The Russians took down some oligarches without bloodshed. Why not for the whole economy. It does not appear to me to be impossible or that hard.

@Nerms -- So are you actually saying you are a communist and you are in favour of a workers revolution against the capital? Hmmm..... Well, good for you
If this is true... please start at home!

@Hanna You sure your not a CIA spy? I suppose if you are one its not likely you would admit to it. I am trying to understand why if things were so good before (as stated many times) they wont go back to it. Basically it appears they are shy about trying. I am trying to give them some courage.

BTW Hanna you are working in a country that owns a good deal of the US businesses. So you are enabling the US to continue to do what it does. I would go so far as to say you are profitting from it. Also the argument is not about the US. The heading of this discussion is old soviet union vs new soviet union. Which is what i am arguing about.

Originally Posted by Nerms

The heading of this discussion if old soviet union vs new soviet union.

New soviet union? What is this? Maybe you mean something like that :



Sorry, couldn't find better quality.

But if seriously, I agree with Putin's saying: "Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no brain".

Hmm, why no brain? Are things not worse now, under grim capitalism.

Originally Posted by Nerms

Hmm, why no brain? Are things not worse now, under grim capitalism.

Because it's absolutely unreal to turn things back. "Фарш невозможно провернуть назад, и мясо из котлет не восстановишь" as popular song says.

Originally Posted by Nerms

Are things not worse now, under grim capitalism.

So since you are not a communist, then the only other conclusion from your usage of ridiculous terminology like this... is that you are "trolling".