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Thread: Russia: old system - new system

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    Завсегдатай Ramil's Avatar
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    Russia: old system - new system

    (Spin off from Elections in Belarus )

    +1 I remember the time of my childhood in the USSR as the happiest time in my life.
    Last edited by Lampada; December 25th, 2010 at 06:12 PM.
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    Завсегдатай Basil77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramil View Post
    +1 I remember the time of my childhood in the USSR as the happiest time in my life.
    Absolutely the same! It's a shame that my children aren't so lucky and have to face the savage grin of capitalism nowdays.
    Please, correct my mistakes, except for the cases I misspell something on purpose!

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    If it was so great why did you give it up?

  4. #4
    Hanna
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    IMHO.... they just didn't know what was coming and everyone got swept away... It happened too fast. Nobody had time to think things through.

    In 1991, hardly anyone in Eastern Europe knew how capitalism worked and there were plenty of people and organisations that were just waiting for an opportunity to take advantage of that. First Western Europeans, then Americans, then local people. Outside of the USSR, I think many Eastern Europeans imagined that if communism was gone, then they'd soon be rich and their daily problems would be gone. 20 years later they have not caught up and Western capitalism is in crisis.

    I realise that I am out of my depth commenting on this..... but I think it might have been better (for the majority) to continue with Gorbatjov's reforms at a reasonable pace. Allow people to get used to market pricing and democracy before introducing big changes. Sell off property that needed to be sold in a controlled manner, after first establishing what the actual value was. Maybe have referendums about which republics wanted to stay in the USSR, or leave. Some of the USSR republics had economies that could not viably function in separation. Allow people to leave the country who didn't want to wait for gradual reforms.

    But of course - it's easy to be wise in hindsight! And what I think is irrelevant. What would have been relevant would have been what the people directly affected thought, and what they wanted... But there was no tradition in the USSR of consulting the people. Maybe there was no really good solution.
    At least it was a revolution in which hardly anyone got killed.

    The comments from this film (Die Stille Nach dem Schuss) about that period are pretty good - just the first bit .YouTube

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    Actually there was a referendum on the future of the Soviet Union in 1991. The question was whether people want to preserve Soviet Union (a slightly improved version) or not.
    The answer was "Yes" - from 70% up to 96% of people in 9 republicks voted for preserving USSR. The highest results were in Asian republicks.
    Detailed results:
    Soviet Union referendum, 1991 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The people's will was ignored which violated Soviet (and probably any other) Constitution.

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    Well if the capitalism thing is not working out for them. Apparently was great before (in USSR times). Maybe they should consider dropping capitalism elements and go back to a collective arrangment. Each to his own capability an such, workers paradise etc. Also it would be nice if China would do the same. Everybody wins then. East is in paradise...West in paradise. After all you dont want to subject your children to the grim realities of capitalism right. You should "DO IT" for your children. A new revolution throw those capitalist out.

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    The people's will was ignored which violated Soviet (and probably any other) Constitution.
    Even more of a reason. They need to be rescued. What are you waiting for?

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    Завсегдатай Ramil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerms View Post
    If it was so great why did you give it up?
    Nobody asked us...
    In fact, they did ask, but then ignored us anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerms
    Maybe they should consider dropping capitalism elements and go back to a collective arrangment.
    The reality had not revealed itself until after several years of 'wild' capitalism. By the time people realized what had happenned, it was already too late. USSR had been disbanded, the state property was quickly sold stolen by the old Comsomol and party leaders and then every republic went its own way. There're still many people who regret that. Surprisingly there are young people among them as well. Even them, who'd been born after 1991.
    USSR had its faults and there were many, but it was nothing compared to the nineties. And today, we surprisingly have nearly all these 'faults of the USSR' I mentioned and some new ones which are even worse.
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    Who ignored you? If all of you want to get together what can stop you? If its Soros or the US just ban them from your country. Do you wait for the future to come to you or do you grab for it. I encourage the workers in your countries to unite. Dont you want your childeren to have a better future?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerms View Post
    Who ignored you? If all of you want to get together what can stop you? If its Soros or the US just ban them from your country. Do you wait for the future to come to you or do you grab for it. I encourage the workers in your countries to unite. Dont you want your childeren to have a better future?
    First, your sarcasm is not funny.
    Second, you can't bring time back. One of the best things in the USSR was a peculiar outlook on life, which will be impossible to recreate. Kids were allowed to be kids, that's why many people remember their Soviet childhood as a happy time.
    And third, the struggle to reunite will lead to economical hardships, political chaos and social turmoil. We had enough of this cr@p already. 90's effectively ruined 10 years of my life, so personally I'm done with revolutions.

  11. #11
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerms View Post
    If its Soros or the US just ban them from your country.
    Putin tried something vaguely like that... Not sure what prompted it or what the reasons were. I think he kicked out... BP?? and some oligarchs... and put some restrictions on missionary activity. But what would that change now?

    And even if they are banned, they can still fund people who work for their agenda, use media broadcasts from abroad etc, etc...
    That is precisely the sort of things that that the CIA engages in.

    And when Putin started doing that, incidentally, was the exact same time that all the talk about "Evil empire is back" and "Human rights abuse in Russia" started, at least in Western Europe.

    When it was a free-for-all cowboy capitalism and people were getting shot on the street, and couldn't afford to pay for food.. then "democracy" in Russia was great....

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    I want to make a suggestion to our kind moderator. When topics are split in two for any reason it can be useful to post a link to the original discussion in the first post.
    Otherwise the first post in a new thread (in this case Ramil's +1) seems strange.

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    If one drives 50km in the wrong direction (capitalism), it makes no sense to continue to drive in the wrong direction. You turn the car around and drive back to where you made your mistake. Continuing to drive in the wrong direction only makes it harder to fix the situation.

    If its an issue of disruption...then say every 5 years change over 25% of your economy to a non-capitalist system. Throwing out all elements of capitalism of those 25% ecomonic elements. You should be back where you started in 20 years. Back to the workers paradise over what you have now which is a capitalist hell hole. If 25% is to much make it 10%. Things should get better as you go as well. I dont understand why if everyone wants to do this it doesnt happen?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerms View Post
    If one drives 50km in the wrong direction (capitalism), it makes no sense to continue to drive in the wrong direction. You turn the car around and drive back to where you made your mistake. Continuing to drive in the wrong direction only makes it harder to fix the situation.

    If its an issue of disruption...then say every 5 years change over 25% of your economy to a non-capitalist system. Throwing out all elements of capitalism of those 25% ecomonic elements. You should be back where you started in 20 years. Back to the workers paradise over what you have now which is a capitalist hell hole. If 25% is to much make it 10%. Things should get better as you go as well. I dont understand why if everyone wants to do this it doesnt happen?
    IMHO, because there was no "workers paradise". I think warm memories from childhood have nothing to do with the real economic situation. People had to work hard for laughable money, but what was the worst was that there was no force to protect their interests, the trade unions were completely pro-governmental, and the second thing, sometimes even having plenty of money, one couldn't get what they wanted through official stores, they had to search for other ways around, sometimes illegal, and take the risk of being tricked or even detained by the soviet police...

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    Завсегдатай Basil77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerms View Post
    I dont understand why if everyone wants to do this it doesnt happen?
    Because the ones who grabbed the national property are no way going to give it back.
    Please, correct my mistakes, except for the cases I misspell something on purpose!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Basil77 View Post
    Because the ones who grabbed the national property are no way going to give it back.
    OK, when it was "national property", did your parents really own at least a small part of it? Did they draw any dividends from the state enterprises, and so on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gRomoZeka View Post
    I want to make a suggestion ... When topics are split in two for any reason it can be useful to post a link to the original discussion in the first post.
    ...
    Great idea! Thank you!

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    Because the ones who grabbed the national property are no way going to give it back.
    Park 100 tanks at there door step. They will give it back. They will be happy to escape alive. Its your (Goverment) property after all. The alternative is to keep waiting. Its only going to get harder to fix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric C. View Post
    People had to work hard for laughable money, ....
    Actually the problem was that you did NOT have to work hard at all. You could be the worst worker ever, and you'd still get the same payment as everyone else, because such was the law. There was almost zero chance to get fired too.
    It demotivated those who could work better (why bother if you still get your money despite your poor performance?), and it was one of the reasons Soviet economy was in trouble. Too many slackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric C. View Post
    OK, when it was "national property", did your parents really own at least a small part of it? Did they draw any dividends from the state enterprises, and so on?
    At least they enjoyed free (and pretty good) medical care and education and no d*mn boss at their work could force them to work at weekends or fire them because he simply doesn't like them.
    Please, correct my mistakes, except for the cases I misspell something on purpose!

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