Thread: Regarding Russian in the Baltic States

Because it is benefical for Russia's rulers to say that there are only enemies around Russia.

They don't say like that.

Originally Posted by nulle

And the same way latvians feel to Latvia when it was flooded by foreign people in Soviet times making Latvians almost minority in their own country...

That were others times, there were strategic things, anyway you had to be occupied if not by Russia then it would be another one. And if you didn't happen to be a minor you would do the same thing.
You weren't annihilated, you had your state, your population grew. Now you are free and disappear ...

Originally Posted by Marcus

Modern Latvian government are American puppets.

You seem hypocritical, you want Central Asians to be Kremlin puppets but mind Baltics to be American.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Well, despite the sorry state of public health care in Sweden, it actually manages to maintain one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world.
The Somalis don't use birth control and where they came from has one of the highest infant mortality rates in the world.

Yeah Sweden is good for them.

The should adapt to the new circumstances, instead of continuing like they were still in Somalia. I think they should start wearing more European clothes as well. If they leave Africa because the situation there is bad, then they ought to try to change a bit to be more like the country they have moved to, in order to get a better life.

This is wishful thinking but they don't break your laws wearing their clothes and carrying on their customs. They are desired but they don't have to adapt as you like.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Minorities happen to become majorities, especially when treated like they never could.

Would you be able to be more specific with: "when treated like they never could?" What does it mean?

Originally Posted by nulle

They are not a minority in largest cities.
In Rīga and Daugavpils you can easily live using only Russian.

You see, in Quebec or Montreal you can live easily using only French, and in Toronto and Vancouver you can live easily using only English. However, both English and French are official languages in Canada. So, no contradiction here.

Also, I was kind of expecting an explanation from you on how the introduction of Russian as a second official language would bring back the Soviet times. So, would you kindly be able to explain?

I mean, I got some 'school' explanation from Eric, and I'm open to that discussion, but since you were the one who played out the 'Soviet times' card, I think you should be responsible to elaborate your opinion upon request, won't you agree?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Would you be able to be more specific with: "when treated like they never could?" What does it mean?

When the minorities get enough rights to bring them upon the majorities, and make them losers in their own game, mainly.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

When the minorities get enough rights to bring them upon the majorities, and make them losers in their own game, mainly.

Do you have an example from the real life you might be referring to? I mean, a political example at least somewhat similar to the situation in context.

Yes Hanna - it is hypocritical that you do not like Somalis and afghans which your democratically elected government allowed in your country.
But you do not have anything against people that were intentionally sent to Latvia by totallitarian occupying power to weaken and oppress our country.

Call me a racist if you want, but yes - I would happily switch 1 Somali for 5 Russians in my country because the Russians could fit and have a lot more in common with the rest of the population and could contribute more to the economy. In fact, there are quite a lot of Russians around, judging from how oftern I hear it spoken in Stockholm. We are all Europeans, I don't see a problem, it's the same as with the intra EU migration.

As for people getting apartments from the queue, yes - I would get one in 7 years with my queue current position..... While the immigrants jump straight to the front of the queue, particularly if they have more children than they can afford... My grandparents worked to build up this system which now benefits mostly immigrants.
Oh well!!!! Fortunately I can afford to buy a flat soon, if I stay here, but not everyone is so lucky.

As for what happened or not after the 2nd world war - it is not for me to say.

Personally I think that the Red Army should have withdrawn from the Baltic States, or held a referendum to check what people wanted. But as we all know, referendums were neither recommended by the ideology.... neither was it Stalin's style.... And all this was 65 years ago. Time to move on....

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Do you have an example from the real life you might be referring to? I mean, a political example at least somewhat similar to the situation in context.

It's been happening all around, just give it a good look. I'd avoid talking about particular cases to maintain political correctness.

Croc - positive discrimination for some jobs, lowering the requirements so ethnic minorities can become policemen or firemen etc. Immigrants jumping to the front of the queue for state apartments because they are somehow more worthy than the citizens of the actual country in question. These types of things create resentment. Not sure if Canada does that but it happens a fair bit around Europe.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Call me a racist if you want, but yes - I would happily switch 1 Somali for 5 Russians in my country because the Russians could fit and have a lot more in common with the rest of the population and could contribute more to the economy. In fact, there are quite a lot of Russians around, judging from how oftern I hear it spoken in Stockholm. We are all Europeans, I don't see a problem, it's the same as with the intra EU migration.

As for people getting apartments from the queue, yes - I would get one in 7 years with my queue current position..... While the immigrants jump straight to the front of the queue, particularly if they have more children than they can afford... My grandparents worked to build up this system which now benefits mostly immigrants.
Oh well!!!! Fortunately I can afford to buy a flat soon, if I stay here, but not everyone is so lucky.

As for what happened or not after the 2nd world war - it is not for me to say.

Personally I think that the Red Army should have withdrawn from the Baltic States, or held a referendum to check what people wanted. But as we all know, referendums were neither recommended by the ideology.... neither was it Stalin's style.... And all this was 65 years ago. Time to move on....

Yes, why can't you criticize your own government? Sweden and other 'EU' countries are just as bad as the Soviet and post-Soviet. In fact, the policies of countries like Sweden are destroying their own countries in order to profit via banks and special interest groups.

At least, the Baltic countries and now Russians are protesting. Swedes an other EU citizens sit on their hands and do nothing.

Personally, I think the citizens of the Baltic citizens should direct any complaint against both governments since both want that friction and division. But, they are similar so any hostility is pointless unless directed towards the Governments who want the conflict.

Of course I critisize my useless government!!
Just not in a Russian forum, and normally mostly to my countrymen....

Originally Posted by Hanna

Of course I critisize my useless government!!
Just not in a Russian forum, and normally mostly to my countrymen....

Hanna I thought in Sweden people are more able to influence on the policy. Why the society wouldn't elect those who will first of all care about their own people instead of sheltering every other?

Originally Posted by Romik

Hanna I thought in Sweden people are more able to influence on the policy. Why the society wouldn't elect those who will first of all care about their own people instead of sheltering every other?

A common misconception. No society can elect a decent and honest leader. Any leader will be either inept or corrupt or both. This is universal.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

It's been happening all around, just give it a good look. I'd avoid talking about particular cases to maintain political correctness.

Oh, come on! In politics, unless you have a sound case beefed up with some good examples, you would be named a populist or a demagogue, agree? Instilling concerns without proper justification supported by some convincing precedents is essentially obscuring the reality and is called mystification. A very well-known and time-proven technique practiced by Shamanism. And we're talking about a very noticeable slice of Latvian population. So noticeable, that we can't even agree if they are a minority or a majority.

After all, what does it mean 'an official language?' That means that should a citizen request a government service in either of the official languages, the government is obliged by law to provide that service to him or her. That is all to it. It does not mean all schools have to switch to Russian and forget about Latvian. Below please find a partial list of countries which had adopted several official languages. Please, notice that in neither of those countries there's a concern of going back to the Soviet times:

Austria
Belgium
Czech Republic (several municipalities have official bilingualism: Czech and Polish)
Kosovo
Luxembourg (three official languages)
Malta
Cameroon
Chad
Burundi
Kenya
Rwanda

In fact, in my opinion, adoption of Russian as a second official language and subsequently granting a citizenship status to the Russian-speaking community in Latvia has NOTHING TO DO with going back to the Soviet times. Unless, of course, nulle would finally wake up and clearly explain otherwise.

Having said that, I can definitely recognize there are cultural wars going on in Latvia. Not resurrection of the Soviet times, but purely cultural debate. And using political means in a cultural debate, in my opinion, is at the very least a dishonest practice. It's more or less like saying: "Oh, your favourite book is more popular than mine, so I'm going to call the publisher and blackmail him, so he would stop publishing your favourite book." Does it make sense?

Originally Posted by Romik

Hanna I thought in Sweden people are more able to influence on the policy. Why the society wouldn't

elect those who will first of all care about their own people instead of sheltering every other?

Rant warning! Don't ask me any more questions about this, I don't want to rant any more lol!!!

<Begin Rant>Actually, it's a very strange political phenomenon. All the "internationalism" and pro-immigration views started in the 1970s under a particular prime minister who was "internationalist" as an extension of his socialist views. He got everyone with him in the political climate of the time. Anyone escaping right wing dictatorships could come to Sweden... At the time, Sweden was very rich and needed workers, so it was not a problem. This was politically fashionable and uper-idealistic with lots of singing Kumbaya and internationale... Media was 100% for it and people thought that the foreigners were interesting. And they gave SO much in foreign aid, it's mind boggling to think about. All this just continued and still today, it's impossible to say anything serious against immigration or foreign aid- you'd be labelled an racist and ostracized. My view is that each nation is responsible for its own citizens and maybe helping out its neighbours. To allow people from all over the world to arrive and support them financially is just stupid.
<Rant++>We are giving foreign aid to China, the worlds 2nd biggest econonomy, and the Chinese are buying our factories. How insane is that???? First the state bails out these companies, then the Chinese buys them...! Apparently the idea of the foreign aid is to support democracy in China... I don't even care about that. This country is so retarded I am not sure I actually want to live here. There'll be nothing left for my grandchildren, we're just giving it away to Somalis, Afghanis and rich Chinese... <end Rant>

В Латвии Деда Мороза оштрафовали за дискриминацию государственного языка

Организаторы праздника с участием Деда Мороза из Великого Устюга были оштрафованы за дискриминацию государственного языка.

В Латвии Деда Мороза оштрафовали за дискриминацию государственного языка | Европа | Deutsche Welle | 03.01.2012

Actually I think that Nulle has some good points regarding Latvia during the Soviet times.
I mean, the bit about Russians getting superior housing in Latvia, and some cultural or language insensitivites.

But: That was over 20 years ago and this is a forum about Russian language and culture primarily. Russians during this period did not treat Latvia any worse than it treated Russia itself. Let's move on.

But there is certainly no confusion regarding what the Baltic people think about having been part of the USSR and nobody will leave this forum with any doubt about that...

And I want to mention that I've actually made a new friend who happens to be Latvian (but she speaks Swedish too). I told her about my interest in Russian language and she offered to help. She said that she is really glad she can speak Russian because it's really helpful in her life. She also said she doesn't blame modern Russia or Russian people for things that happened 50 years ago.

Организаторы праздника с участием Деда Мороза из Великого Устюга были оштрафованы за дискриминацию государственного языка.

Yes - I heard about this.
Sometimes National Language Center goes too far - this was a pretty stupid decision...

Russians during this period did not treat Latvia any worse than it treated Russia itself.

The problem is with people like this one:
TV5: Krievu fašists par latviešu valodu - YouTube

Who still think that Latvian independence is some kind of historical error and want USSR and their privileges back.

she doesn't blame modern Russia or Russian people for things that happened 50 years ago.

I also do not blame them - except those who think that Stalin and what he did was right.