Thread: Regarding Russian in the Baltic States

One thing to mention about this is that the Estonians & co always brag about their knowledge of Russian as soon as they leave the country. They put it on their CV and generally mention it a lot.. I've also heard many Baltic people say that they LIKE the Russian language, litterature and film and that the Russian language training in the USSR days was very good. I don't know how/when/if younger people learn Russian nowadays, but in fact, all Baltic people I know speak Russian - probably fluently. With all that in mind you might think that they might be able to be a bit more open-minded!

I met an Estonian guy today who was a friend of a friend -- and I asked his opinion about this. He said that the real problem was that many of the Russian speakers in Estonia are criminals or unemployed and that they aren't interested in being part of society in Estonia. Since I don't know very much about the situation with criminality and unemployment in Estonia I couldn't say anything in response. This guy said that he personally didn't mind speaking Russian though.

It doesn't help these Russians that the Baltic languages are REALLY strange and probably incredibly hard to learn. They're not Slavic languages and they're not Germanic either... I don't really know what they are. Estonian sounds a bit like Finnish and I am not too sure if I could tell Latvian and Lithuanian apart. I think it would be a really advantageous thing for these tiny countries if they were officially bilingual, like Luxembourg for instance. Too bad they are too narrowminded to think clearly at the moment.

There is a popular joke in Latvia.
"Ja Latvijā būs divas oficiālās valodas, tad tikai latvieši runās divās valodās."
"If there are two official languages in Latvia, then only Latvians will speak in two languages".
Soviet times were basically like that.

There is a popular joke in Latvia.
"Ja Latvijā būs divas oficiālās valodas, tad tikai latvieši runās divās valodās."
"If there are two official languages in Latvia, then only Latvians will speak in two languages".
Soviet times were basically like that.

Тогда Латвия была частью Советского Союза, где русский язык играл огромную роль. Сейчас это не так, поэтому такой ситуации не будет.

It doesn't help these Russians that the Baltic languages are REALLY strange and probably incredibly hard to learn. They're not Slavic languages and they're not Germanic either...

Эстонский язык совершенно не похож на русский, а латышский и литовский довольно близки, по крайней мере в грамматике.

First week of collecting signatures to make russian official ended - and only ~11 000 people signed.
They need another ~130 000 signatures to start a referendum - looks like that most russians simply do not care about this issue.

I started this thread before I had been to Latvia. The information that I had read was very much biased in favour of the Russian speakers, presenting them as a mistreated minority. What I noticed in Latvia was that the majority there are actually bilingual, and practically minded enough to make an effort to communicate with the other language group. I heard Latvians speak Russian and Russians speak Latvian. I heard a bit of complaints from both sides, but nothing radical. The country is not about to fall apart over this.

On the petition that Nulle mentions: Well if the people concerned don't care about it, then neither do I.

I was certainly under the impression that they were being discriminated against, linguistically, but too unused to democracy to figure out what to do about it. If these people are happy to speak Latvian in all situations, then that's fine by me.

I read a Russian speaking newspaper in Latvia and they were rather laidback about the language issue, although it was mentioned a few times there was no big drama, just a concern about education in Russian.

PS - Nulle do you know any good online computer / electronics retailer in Latvia? I would like to buy something that I saw in Latvia that is not avaialble in Sweden..

Originally Posted by nulle

First week of collecting signatures to make russian official ended - and only ~11 000 people signed.
They need another ~130 000 signatures to start a referendum - looks like that most russians simply do not care about this issue.

Куда пропал? Не хочешь назвать окончательное количество подписавшихся?

Не хочешь назвать окончательное количество подписавшихся?

Сколько их по вашим данным?

Originally Posted by Hanna

I started this thread before I had been to Latvia. The information that I had read was very much biased in favour of the Russian speakers, presenting them as a mistreated minority. What I noticed in Latvia was that the majority there are actually bilingual, and practically minded enough to make an effort to communicate with the other language group. I heard Latvians speak Russian and Russians speak Latvian. I heard a bit of complaints from both sides, but nothing radical. The country is not about to fall apart over this.

On the petition that Nulle mentions: Well if the people concerned don't care about it, then neither do I.

I was certainly under the impression that they were being discriminated against, linguistically, but too unused to democracy to figure out what to do about it. If these people are happy to speak Latvian in all situations, then that's fine by me.

I read a Russian speaking newspaper in Latvia and they were rather laidback about the language issue, although it was mentioned a few times there was no big drama, just a concern about education in Russian.

PS - Nulle do you know any good online computer / electronics retailer in Latvia? I would like to buy something that I saw in Latvia that is not avaialble in Sweden..

Ну, это вы как-то необъективно говорите. Во-первых, я не уверен в цифрах Нулле, и это не окончательный результат. Во-вторых, то, что люди могут говорить по-латышски, не исключает того, что им не нравится, когда их язык не уважают и стремятся вытеснить. Кроме того, не уважают историю, говорят, что они оккупанты и т. д. Но это не значит, что это для них вопрос жизни и смерти и что они из-за этого устроят восстание.

Originally Posted by Marcus

Сколько их по вашим данным?

ЦИК: есть данные о 183 000 подписей за русский язык - DELFI

К вечеру четверга Центральная избирательная комиссия располагала данными о 183 046 подписей за проект поправок к Сатверсме, предусматривающих введение второго государственного языка, сообщил глава ЦИК Арнис Цимдарс.
Между тем, для передачи проекта на рассмотрение Сейма и дальнейший референдум требуется только 154 379 подписей.

Естественно, нацики в любом случае не допустят, чтобы русский язык стал вторым государственным.

Originally Posted by Marcus

Ну, это вы как-то необъективно говорите. Во-первых, я не уверен в цифрах Нулле, и это не окончательный результат. Во-вторых, то, что люди могут говорить по-латышски, не исключает того, что им не нравится, когда их язык не уважают и стремятся вытеснить. Кроме того, не уважают историю, говорят, что они оккупанты и т. д. Но это не значит, что это для них вопрос жизни и смерти и что они из-за этого устроят восстание.

Если им не нравится языковая ситуация и интерпретация истории, то пусть едут в Россию, где всё правильно для них.

Originally Posted by Romik

Если им не нравится языковая ситуация и интерпретация истории, то пусть едут в Россию, где всё правильно для них.

Это, конечно, логичное высказывание, но уж очень недальновидное, как мне представляется. Ибо вместо ожидаемой массовой эмиграции вполне можно получить сепаратизм, т.е. попытки создания национальной автономии на территории Латвии.

более 180 000 граждан Латвии.

Важный момент - неграждане не участвует, а они все как один русскоязычные.
Статья в википедии о негражданах Латвии: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%...2%D0%B8%D1%8F)

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Это, конечно, логичное высказывание, но уж очень недальновидное, как мне представляется. Ибо вместо ожидаемой массовой эмиграции вполне можно получить сепаратизм, т.е. попытки создания национальной автономии на территории Латвии.

Ты хочешь что-бы они создали русскую автономию в Латвии

Originally Posted by Romik

Ты хочешь что-бы они создали русскую автономию в Латвии

Именно! На сегодняшний день подобные вопросы решаются именно так. Или в обществе худо-бедно достигается консенсус, или возникает сепаратизм в обнимку с терроризмом. Моральная сторона вопроса уже как бы решена, ибо "нацики".

Важный момент - неграждане не участвует

Of course not - I'm not allowed to vote in Russia too...

я не уверен в цифрах Нулле, и это не окончательный результат

It was a correct number after first week.
Most signatures were gathered during last week (more than 100 000) - after massive hate mongering campaign (probably financed by Kremlin).
ir - Infografika: Parakstu vākšanas aktivitāte - you can see history here.

I think that all this is stupid provocation - to destabilize situation - because everyone knows that there is exactly zero chance to win this referendum - even if every non-citizen is allowed to vote.
You need 750k votes, but there are not that many Russians here.
And Latvians will not vote for russian to be official - we remember soviet times too well...

http://rus.tvnet.lv/novosti/kommjent...idjeointjervju

Originally Posted by nulle

And Latvians will not vote for russian to be official - we remember soviet times too well...

Well, since you're on that topic, would you be able to elaborate on how the recognition of Russian as another official language would resurrect the soviet times?

One funny thing that I heard several times was that each person spoke in his own language.
So they could carry on a discussion like this for a while, in several cases, on the tram or once in a shop.

But then if a Russian-speaking person from Russia, Ukraine etc happened to visit they would have a hard time convincing the Latvian speaker that they genuinely could not understand Latvian and had never studied it. Obviously a bit awkward. Several Russian speakers mentioned that this happened totheir relatives from Russia were visiting.

My personal view is that both sides should make an effort to accommodate the other and try to leave the past behind. As a bilingual and Russian speaking EU country they have great opportunity to be a gateway between East and West.

In Liepaja (see below) the language groups got on really well and it was completely impossible to guess who was Latvian and who was Russian. In Riga, the two groups were a bit more segregated from each other - that was my impression. In Daugavpils, everyone was Russian speaking.



;

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Well, since you're on that topic, would you be able to elaborate on how the recognition of Russian as another official language would resurrect the soviet times?

"What wasn't completed by our swords will be completed by our schools" (c)

I may be mistaken with the exact wording, though.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

"What wasn't completed by our swords will be completed by our schools" (c)

Huh? The Russian-speaking people in Latvia constitute the minority. That saying you mentioned should actually work the other way around.