Thread: Regarding Russian in the Baltic States

I made a comment earlier that I'd write a post about this. This is that post..

Ok, as I've mentioned before, I'm originally Swedish and my country (+the rest of Scandinavia) have quite strong links with the Baltic States. They belonged to Sweden for quite a while and there's always been trade and exchange. A relative of mine for instance, was born in Estonia. Sweden is currently the biggest investor in the Baltic States).

Regarding the status of Russian language and the treatment of Russians:
The Balts are idiots in this respect (sorry any Balts who read this).

If they can't treat linguistic minorities in their countries right, then they should leave the EU!! EU started as a peace project and it is totally against any form of discrimination for any reason.

The EU knows that the Baltic states discriminate against Russian speakers. EU is trying to stop it, but perhaps not as strongly as is needed. (Frankly, there are some double standards and prejudice in Europe regarding Russia. As we know.)

Improving the treatment of Russians in Balticum was actually a condition for these countries when they were going to join the EU. But it looks like it was "lip service" only. (lip-service means you say you are going to do something, but then you don't do it... Or you pretend to agree with something.. )

The best thing that could happen would be if Russian speakers in these countries sued their government at the European Court in Strasbourg. Then they would get attention to their situation and support from other parts of Europe. There are many minorities that would support this group out of principle.

What the Balts are doing is against European legislation.. For several reasons they are "getting away with it" right now.

The other, more practical reason why this is wrong is shown by economic examples from modern European countries.

Language / bilingual skills are GOOD for smaller countries -- in particular if the language of a larger neighbour is spoken. Luxembourg and Switzerland are the top examples of this. Switzerland and Luxembourg are among the very richest countries per capita in Europe. Their langauage policies have helped them greatly.

Estonians really like Finland because it has a similar language. There are tons of Estonians in Finland... While they are there they should look at how Finland treats the Swedish speaking minority (just 10% of the population).

These 10% can completely ignore learning Finnish if they want to! They can get all their information and schooling in Swedish. They can work in a Swedish speaking environment if they really want to. All the regular Finns have to study Swedish in school for 4 years and can usually speak basic or good Swedish.

This system is democratically chosen in Finland because the Finns realise that it's beneficial. It means they can have strong ties and good relations with Sweden. The Finns are pretty disgusted at how Russians in the Baltic states are treated.

The old Swedish ambassador to Moscow is currently running a campaign to convince all Nordic leaders to put pressure (economical, if needed) on the Baltic states to stop their blatant discrimination.) In Scandinavia we go out of our ways to support the Saami people (native) and avoid any other discrimination. We should not allow an area that we support financially to do this either,

However the campaign is not getting as much attention as it ought to, and some people have started having prejudice against Russia (which, interestingly, they did not have during the USSR times... weird...)

There was sympathy in Scandinavia for the Baltic states during USSR era because we knew that they had been incorporated into the USSR against the will of the majority. But this is old news now (=meaning it's no longer relevant) and Baltikum was not exactly the third world anyway! They had a rather cushy position in the USSR, as I understand it. They had good educational facilities, several resorts and modern houses built for poor people.. In fact, I actually visited Latvia during USSR times and it seemed more or less like any other European state apart from less shops, restaurants and advertising.

As for their grievance against Russia: Yes, it's understandable, BUT --- these countries have practically ALWAYS been under foreign control, throughout history. Sweden had them for quite a while -- Germany has also controlled them, and Poland too. Russia just happens to be the latest country to do it!

They need to get over it and accept the situation as it is, including the fact that they have a Russian speaking minority.

My country is in a position to put pressure on them and I hope Sweden, Finland and the rest of the EU will support the rights of this ethnic minority. Just like it is supporting national minorities elsewhere in Europe. Anything else would be horrible double standards.

Tallinn bronze soldier, old location...

There is a popular joke in Latvia.
"Ja Latvijā būs divas oficiālās valodas, tad tikai latvieši runās divās valodās."
"If there are two official languages in Latvia, then only Latvians will speak in two languages".
Soviet times were basically like that.

It doesn't help these Russians that the Baltic languages are REALLY strange and probably incredibly hard to learn. They're not Slavic languages and they're not Germanic either...

Эстонский язык совершенно не похож на русский, а латышский и литовский довольно близки, по крайней мере в грамматике.

First week of collecting signatures to make russian official ended - and only ~11 000 people signed.
They need another ~130 000 signatures to start a referendum - looks like that most russians simply do not care about this issue.

Originally Posted by nulle

First week of collecting signatures to make russian official ended - and only ~11 000 people signed.
They need another ~130 000 signatures to start a referendum - looks like that most russians simply do not care about this issue.

Куда пропал? Не хочешь назвать окончательное количество подписавшихся?

There is a popular joke in Latvia.
"Ja Latvijā būs divas oficiālās valodas, tad tikai latvieši runās divās valodās."
"If there are two official languages in Latvia, then only Latvians will speak in two languages".
Soviet times were basically like that.

Тогда Латвия была частью Советского Союза, где русский язык играл огромную роль. Сейчас это не так, поэтому такой ситуации не будет.

I started this thread before I had been to Latvia. The information that I had read was very much biased in favour of the Russian speakers, presenting them as a mistreated minority. What I noticed in Latvia was that the majority there are actually bilingual, and practically minded enough to make an effort to communicate with the other language group. I heard Latvians speak Russian and Russians speak Latvian. I heard a bit of complaints from both sides, but nothing radical. The country is not about to fall apart over this.

On the petition that Nulle mentions: Well if the people concerned don't care about it, then neither do I.

I was certainly under the impression that they were being discriminated against, linguistically, but too unused to democracy to figure out what to do about it. If these people are happy to speak Latvian in all situations, then that's fine by me.

I read a Russian speaking newspaper in Latvia and they were rather laidback about the language issue, although it was mentioned a few times there was no big drama, just a concern about education in Russian.

PS - Nulle do you know any good online computer / electronics retailer in Latvia? I would like to buy something that I saw in Latvia that is not avaialble in Sweden..

Originally Posted by Hanna

I started this thread before I had been to Latvia. The information that I had read was very much biased in favour of the Russian speakers, presenting them as a mistreated minority. What I noticed in Latvia was that the majority there are actually bilingual, and practically minded enough to make an effort to communicate with the other language group. I heard Latvians speak Russian and Russians speak Latvian. I heard a bit of complaints from both sides, but nothing radical. The country is not about to fall apart over this.

On the petition that Nulle mentions: Well if the people concerned don't care about it, then neither do I.

I was certainly under the impression that they were being discriminated against, linguistically, but too unused to democracy to figure out what to do about it. If these people are happy to speak Latvian in all situations, then that's fine by me.

I read a Russian speaking newspaper in Latvia and they were rather laidback about the language issue, although it was mentioned a few times there was no big drama, just a concern about education in Russian.

PS - Nulle do you know any good online computer / electronics retailer in Latvia? I would like to buy something that I saw in Latvia that is not avaialble in Sweden..

Ну, это вы как-то необъективно говорите. Во-первых, я не уверен в цифрах Нулле, и это не окончательный результат. Во-вторых, то, что люди могут говорить по-латышски, не исключает того, что им не нравится, когда их язык не уважают и стремятся вытеснить. Кроме того, не уважают историю, говорят, что они оккупанты и т. д. Но это не значит, что это для них вопрос жизни и смерти и что они из-за этого устроят восстание.

Originally Posted by Marcus

Ну, это вы как-то необъективно говорите. Во-первых, я не уверен в цифрах Нулле, и это не окончательный результат. Во-вторых, то, что люди могут говорить по-латышски, не исключает того, что им не нравится, когда их язык не уважают и стремятся вытеснить. Кроме того, не уважают историю, говорят, что они оккупанты и т. д. Но это не значит, что это для них вопрос жизни и смерти и что они из-за этого устроят восстание.

Если им не нравится языковая ситуация и интерпретация истории, то пусть едут в Россию, где всё правильно для них.

Originally Posted by Romik

Если им не нравится языковая ситуация и интерпретация истории, то пусть едут в Россию, где всё правильно для них.

Это, конечно, логичное высказывание, но уж очень недальновидное, как мне представляется. Ибо вместо ожидаемой массовой эмиграции вполне можно получить сепаратизм, т.е. попытки создания национальной автономии на территории Латвии.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Это, конечно, логичное высказывание, но уж очень недальновидное, как мне представляется. Ибо вместо ожидаемой массовой эмиграции вполне можно получить сепаратизм, т.е. попытки создания национальной автономии на территории Латвии.

Ты хочешь что-бы они создали русскую автономию в Латвии

Не хочешь назвать окончательное количество подписавшихся?

Сколько их по вашим данным?

Originally Posted by Marcus

Сколько их по вашим данным?

ЦИК: есть данные о 183 000 подписей за русский язык - DELFI

К вечеру четверга Центральная избирательная комиссия располагала данными о 183 046 подписей за проект поправок к Сатверсме, предусматривающих введение второго государственного языка, сообщил глава ЦИК Арнис Цимдарс.
Между тем, для передачи проекта на рассмотрение Сейма и дальнейший референдум требуется только 154 379 подписей.

Естественно, нацики в любом случае не допустят, чтобы русский язык стал вторым государственным.

более 180 000 граждан Латвии.

Важный момент - неграждане не участвует, а они все как один русскоязычные.
Статья в википедии о негражданах Латвии: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%...2%D0%B8%D1%8F)

One funny thing that I heard several times was that each person spoke in his own language.
So they could carry on a discussion like this for a while, in several cases, on the tram or once in a shop.

But then if a Russian-speaking person from Russia, Ukraine etc happened to visit they would have a hard time convincing the Latvian speaker that they genuinely could not understand Latvian and had never studied it. Obviously a bit awkward. Several Russian speakers mentioned that this happened totheir relatives from Russia were visiting.

My personal view is that both sides should make an effort to accommodate the other and try to leave the past behind. As a bilingual and Russian speaking EU country they have great opportunity to be a gateway between East and West.

In Liepaja (see below) the language groups got on really well and it was completely impossible to guess who was Latvian and who was Russian. In Riga, the two groups were a bit more segregated from each other - that was my impression. In Daugavpils, everyone was Russian speaking.



;

One funny thing that I heard several times was that each person spoke in his own language.

Like this
GUSTAVO/Влади "No lupam lasi - глупо, но класс" - YouTube
I speak to my landlord like that all the time. And resort to russian ONLY when she does not understand anything at all what i'm saying (happens quite often).
Person who owns at least two apartments here is not a tourist and should know local language.

The Russian-speaking people in Latvia constitute the minority.

They are not a minority in largest cities.
In Rīga and Daugavpils you can easily live using only Russian.

And about tourists:
It is simple - If someone asks me if I understand his language - I will assume that he is a tourist.
Otherwise I will assume that he is a local and answer in Latvian.

Originally Posted by nulle

They are not a minority in largest cities.
In Rīga and Daugavpils you can easily live using only Russian.

You see, in Quebec or Montreal you can live easily using only French, and in Toronto and Vancouver you can live easily using only English. However, both English and French are official languages in Canada. So, no contradiction here.

Also, I was kind of expecting an explanation from you on how the introduction of Russian as a second official language would bring back the Soviet times. So, would you kindly be able to explain?

I mean, I got some 'school' explanation from Eric, and I'm open to that discussion, but since you were the one who played out the 'Soviet times' card, I think you should be responsible to elaborate your opinion upon request, won't you agree?

They are not a minority in largest cities.
In Rīga and Daugavpils you can easily live using only Russian.

And their language is considered foreign.

Originally Posted by Marcus

And their language is considered foreign.

In Moscow - Tajik, Uzbek, Armenian, Georgian languages also are considered foreign, don't you mind it?

Originally Posted by Romik

In Moscow - Tajik, Uzbek, Armenian, Georgian languages also are considered foreign, don't you mind it?

So, you're Russian, but don't pretty much like Moscow, right? =)

PS. I'm NOT getting personal, just curious.