Thread: Regarding Russian in the Baltic States

Very funny incident to do with the Latvian language issue came up at work today. It went like this.

(Steering group meeting)

Global HR manager: Oh, and I have some exciting news for you: It's finally official! We are expanding to Latvia, so you need to sort out a Latvian version of the software by xx date.
Me: Oh, actually, then we have to add EUR 35k to the project budget because I am almost certain that Latvian is not an existing language from the vendor.
My boss: 35k!!!!
Me: Yes, there is quite a lot of work to add a new version from scratch, actually, and it's the same price as I just added to the budget for purchasing a Bulgarian version.
My boss: How many people live in Latvia??? Don't they speak Russian too? I know someone from Latvia and he speaks Russian! Lots of people were speaking Russian when I was there. How about if we tell them that they can have either the Russian or the English version?
(Clueless) HR manager: But there is a Latvian language, isn't there? The policy is that all of our employees should get the software in their own language. There is no guarantee that they speak either Russian or English! It's really a core value for us.
My boss: Well if there are 300 new employees in Latvia, then the price is EUR 150 per person to follow that policy! And they already speak Russian.
Me: The best thing to do might be to speak to the new manager there and ask what they recommend... I've heard that the language situation in Latvia is quite sensitive...
HR Manager: Ok I will take care of that.

This company is very big and successful, but the IT department is really backwards. For what it is worth, I thought the Russian idea was really crap, and I was shocked that the Global HR manager was not 100% certain that Latvian was a real language!! The right thing to do is definitely to add Latvian.

There is no guarantee that they speak either Russian or English!

Actually I haven't met any Latvian that don't understand at least one of them.
Everyone that works in IT industry in Latvia know English.
And I don't really care about localized versions - a lot of IT terms lack a proper translation - and our linguists usually come up with new words that sound funny or retarded.

all your antiRussia comments on this Russian website

If I like/know Russian language, that does not mean that I have to like Soviet Union or Russian government (especially if it is unfriendly to my country).

let bygones be bygones and look to the future instead.

Many Russians that live here do not want that - they want their soviet time privileges back.
And that's why they started this referendum that will achieve absolutely nothing, and will waste 4 000 000 $ of taxpayer money (that could be spent a lot better - to renovate some russian school or something like that).
I will go and vote against too.

you just can't ignore demands of the third part of the population.

People who immigrated illegally want to demand something?
They should be grateful that they were not deported (like Czechoslovakia did with migrants that settled during Nazi occupation).
We also have most liberal naturalization policy in the EU - you only can have problems with it if you don't know Latvian.
Those who did not immigrate during soviet times got citizenship with no questions asked (more than 200 000 russians).
All russians are NOT non-citizens.

Also many non-citizens do not want to naturalize (even if they know language), especially those who live near Russian border.
They do not have to buy a visa to travel to Russia.
So they can go and buy much cheaper fuel and other goods in Russia.
And can visit their friends and relatives living in Russia.

equal rights for everyone

All Latvian CITIZENS have absolutely equal rights - does not matter what their native language is.

like language police slapping a fine on people for insufficient use of the Latvian language at work

Yes - it is shameful that 20 years after we got independence we still need something like that.
And that some people don't learn language of a country they are living in.
xdns - what would you do if you called emergency service and got someone who does not understand russian on the other end?

political boycott

LOL WHAT?
Mayors of Rīga (capital) and Daugavpils (2nd largest city) both are ethnic Russians.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ушаков,_Нил_Валерьевич
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Кулакова,_Жанна_Михайловна
And also - ~1/4 of our parliament are ethnic Russians too (last time they even elected one who does not know Latvian lol).

I agree with you that it's a shame to live in independent Latvia without knowledge of the Latvian language. But I think that Latvian authorities should swap sticks for carrots. How about abolishing language police and introducing free Latvian courses instead? How about tax deductions - the higher your level of Latvian (B2, C1 etc.), the lower your taxes? People should have an incentive to learn the Latvian language. It is a job for the minister for integration to devise approaches that really work and integrate, not alienate people, after all! And in the same time Russian should be at least made official in several places with significant Russophone population, according to European practices of minorities' treatment (described, for example, in the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages).
I think that the forthcoming referendum is considered by many Russian Latvians as a way to draw attention to the shortcomings of Latvian society. The authorities apparently gave them no other chance to be heard, because their representatives are excluded from the government (I meant THAT political boycott, on the state level).

How about abolishing language police and introducing free Latvian courses instead

There are free language courses (and in Russian schools 60% of lessons should be in Latvian).
The problem is with the biggest carrot - Russia and its propaganda:
"Latvia is a failed state",
"Latvians are fascists",
"Latvians cannot govern themselves properly",
"It was a mistake to secede from USSR",
"wait a bit and you will receive citizenship and Russian as an official language (so you will not have to learn Latvian)".
And open border with Russia for non-citizens also is a good reason remain non-citizen.

How about tax deductions - the higher your level of Latvian (B2, C1 etc.), the lower your taxes?

That is a quite radical proposal - I haven't heard anything like that even from Latvian nationalists

because their representatives are excluded from the government

If you mean Harmony centre - they were excluded because their economic policy was incompatible with that of current government.
(the same way democrats or republicans exclude each other in US).
And they refused to sign government declaration, which contained things like:
"All government parties recognize that Latvia was unlawfully occupied by Soviet Union"
"Latvian should be only official language in Latvia"
In 2010 they also had to agree on similar declaration - and they refused.

The authorities apparently gave them no other chance to be heard

10 000 citizens can submit any bill to the parliament.

Actually I haven't met any Latvian that don't understand at least one of them.
Everyone that works in IT industry in Latvia know English.
And I don't really care about localized versions - a lot of IT terms lack a proper translation - and our linguists usually come up with new words that sound funny or retarded.

The users of this software will mostly be people who work in shops.... (??) Not likely to be university graduates etc
Do you think it would make sense to offer the software in EITHER Latvian and Russian instead? They are given a legal text to agree to - which they must understand. Also, they need to do quite a lot of administration inside the software. As a comparison, most of the Dutch users do not read English well enough to use the software in English - and they are known for a very high level of English there. For Hong Kong, for example, the users can choose "HK English" or "HK Traditional Chinese". Perhaps for Latvia, we should do "Latvia - Latvian" and maybe also "Latvia - Russian". Not a lot of extra trouble since a Russian version already exists. But a really nice and unexpected gesture towards the native Russian speakers. And I totally agree with the point that everyone in Latvia speaks Russian, in particular people in shops. It was quite impressive to hear people switch back and forth. This particular company is incredibly sensitive to cultural stuff and I am almost certain that they will want to have a Latvian version even though it's terrible economy to translate for such a small market, and does not make a lot of practical sense.
The software is only rolled out in a few countries so far, but it's being phased in gradually and Latvia on the grounds of being a new market jumps to the top of the queue. Latvia is the first Baltic expansion so there is no precedence from the other countries.

People who immigrated illegally want to demand something?

Latvia is choosing to look at this situation from a very strange (to outsiders) perspective. Everyone realises that the people in question were either moved to Latvia for work- perhaps not even according to their own preference, but as a work posting. Others read information by the perfectly legal (at the time) state saying "Move to Latvia - lots of opportunities... " etc. and they heeded it in good faith. It is not fair to call them "illegal immigrants today". Particularly since most of these "illegal immigrants" were born in the country or lived there for many decades.

Ушаков,_Нил_Валерьевич

Nils is not a Russian name.... ? It's common in Scandinavia, maybe Baltic states too.. Maybe he's of mixed parentage.

they want their soviet time privileges back.

Can you give some examples?

And they refused to sign government declaration, which contained things like:
"All government parties recognize that Latvia was unlawfully occupied by Soviet Union"
"Latvian should be only official language in Latvia"

I think it's petty, ridiculous and immature for a country to require political parties to sign up to stuff like that just because they have a axe to grind. Other countries do not require political parties to agree to statements of this nature.

The whole point of politics is that you have different opinions on events past and present! If these voters do not support those opinions, why should they? In a democracy it's free to have your own opinion about different matters.

It's a bit similar to the anti-immigration parties across Europe which represents large parts of the population but are not given the same democratic rights as other countries to participate in debates etc.

All Latvia is doing is putting a lid on a sensitive question. The Russian speakers in Latvia did not have a lot of experience with democracy and accepted a treatment that would have been unthinkable and would have created riots had anyone tried it in Western Europe. But times are changing and by alienating them and not respecting them, Latvia is creating a smoldering situation that might explode at a later time.

As for the software, I fail to see why not just ship it with all the languages it's localized for at the moment, so that you could just add Latvian and make the Latvian version release right away.

@Eric - This is a bespoke SAA solution. There is a licencing issue, extensive customization and data migration, a translation and review period, a number of legal aspects and lots of other complicated considerations involved. This is a global corporation with an extremely large number of employees, all of whom will be using this. Obviously I simplified the situation a bit since this is not a discussion about IT management.

Mixture of attempts to look democratic and with ethnical dictatorship.

Originally Posted by nulle

There are free language courses (and in Russian schools 60% of lessons should be in Latvian).

I've just read that there were free (except for the schoolchildren and the unemployed) Latvian language courses in Riga in late 2011, and people are invited to sign up for similar courses scheduled for 2012. These courses are funded with Riga's money, so it's not a nationwide initiative. In online discussions Russian Latvians welcome this decision and regret that there were no such free courses for the last 20 years (!). Are they mistaken?

Originally Posted by nulle

"It was a mistake to secede from USSR",
"wait a bit and you will receive citizenship and Russian as an official language (so you will not have to learn Latvian)".
And open border with Russia for non-citizens also is a good reason remain non-citizen.

There are also some non-citizens with a firm stance against naturalization despite having sufficient knowledge of Latvian to pass the exams.
They just find it offensive that they were not granted citizenship without any questions after living in the country for 50-60 years and even voting for Latvian independence in 1991 (yes, many Russian Latvians actually voted for free democratic Latvia, and they couldn't imagine at the time that they would have to earn their citizenship afterwards)!


What about language inspections - it is a very sensitive issue from the Russian Latvians' point of view. Some people complain that officers asked them embarrassing questions about their descent. Also they say that Russian businessmen in Latvia tend not to hire native Latvians because they may file a complaint about insufficient use of the Latvian language at work. Clearly language police is perceived by Russian Latvians as an offensive force, and they unanimously agree that the authorities should better spend taxpayers' money on popularization of the Latvian language instead. Love cannot be forced.

And what about privileges - I've heard about one particular privilege that Latvians had in Russia during Soviet times. They could enroll in the topmost universities (like MSU in Moscow) competing only with their fellow Latvians (there were reserved places for different ethnic minorities from across the Soviet Union), whereas Russians had no such special treatment. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Mixture of attempts to look democratic and with ethnical dictatorship.

Unlike Russia - Latvia is democratic. Election rigging like in Russia is simply unthinkable here.
And if there is ethnical dictatorship - why Russians better stay here and not move to Russia? (even those who live near the border - they could move only couple of kilometers (less than 100) and be in Russia)
Some even apply for Russian citizenship to get Russian pension (age of retirement is lower in Russia), but still stay here...

Everyone realises that the people in question were either moved to Latvia for work- perhaps not even according to their own preference, but as a work posting. Others read information by the perfectly legal (at the time) state saying "Move to Latvia - lots of opportunities... " etc. and they heeded it in good faith. It is not fair to call them "illegal immigrants today".

Yes, and that's why we gave them permanent residence permits and allowed them to stay here. (Unlike some Central-Asian republics which started to simply lynch Russian immigrants and throw them out of their homes (Tajikistan) )
We understand that many of them did not even know that Baltics was occupied territory - USSR propaganda was really powerful.
This problem was not created by Latvians, but by USSR and we handled it as best as we could.
And remember that 400 000 of them voted AGAINST Latvian independence - and we allowed them to stay too...
Hell, we even allowed retired military officials to stay (only those who served in active military service had to leave).

I think it's petty, ridiculous and immature for a country to require political parties to sign up to stuff like that just because they have a axe to grind. Other countries do not require political parties to agree to statements of this nature.

Country did not require them to sign up.
Other political parties (who had majority) required them.
And this "stuff like that" are foundations of Latvia - party that does not respect them have no place in government - don't care that they claim to represent Latvia's Russian population (they are not representing - Russians join and vote for other parties too).
There is huge difference between -
"Latvia declared independence in 1918 and was unlawfully occupied by USSR and later - in 1990 restored independence"
"Latvia voluntarily joined USSR in 1940 and ceased to exist, in 1990 a new country called Latvia seceded from USSR and declared independence".
Latvians and most of our political parties (regardless of ideology) and Western world agrees to first version.
Russia and Harmony Centre agrees to second.
These two views are not compatible and there is not anything to discuss about them.

Nils is not a Russian name.... ? It's common in Scandinavia, maybe Baltic states too.. Maybe he's of mixed parentage.

He says that his nationality is Russian and he is former non-citizen.
I, personally don't like him, not because he's Russian, but because he is wasting my tax money on unnecessary shit...
And also because he says that Latvian should be the only oficial alnguage, but at he same time he also went and signed this petition for russian to be official.

Many people have moved to Russia despite the fact that no one is waiting for them here.

and even voting for Latvian independence in 1991 (yes, many Russian Latvians actually voted for free democratic Latvia, and they couldn't imagine at the time that they would have to earn their citizenship afterwards)!

They are punished for that and that's fair.

that would have been unthinkable and would have created riots had anyone tried it in Western Europe

Expulsion of Germans from Czechoslovakia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Many people have moved to Russia despite the fact that no one is waiting for them here.

Not from Latvia.
Place where I live feels almost like Russia - you can meet Russians everywhere - they do not want to go to Russia...

yes, many Russian Latvians actually voted for free democratic Latvia

And many received citizneship.
Anyway - I agree that maybe Latvian government should have done something differently back then.
Like giving citizenship to those who voted for Latvian independence.
But you have to understand situation back then.
Occupation army everywhere, huge number of immigrants that do not know Latvian and who voted against independence, Latvians almost minority in their own country (52% in whole country, ~30% in Rīga), KGB/OMON killing people in Lithuania, many more people remembering soviet crimes and atrocities...
And also - Latvians did not want to give power to Russians anymore (nationalism was way more stronger back then).
(Even now many people refer to Soviet period as - "krievu laiki", (Russian times))

But if you look at all these post-Soviet conflicts (Tajikistan, Chechnya, Georgia, Nagorno Karabakh, etc) in 1990s and Yugoslavia - Baltics handled this situation very well.

they do not want to go to Russia...

People usually leave the country when there is no other variant or when they can get something significantly better. There are some Russians even in Tadjikistan.

And also - Latvians did not want to give power to Russians anymore (nationalism was way more stronger back then).

Russians did not rule. Look at the Soviet leaders. Most of them are not ethnic Russians.
And actually, do you suffer the presence of these people? Would it be better if all the Russians were exiled?

A court* removed a candidate from a ballot** because she lacks the required language skills: Candidate confirms she will appeal decision removing her from ballot, cabrera, english, appeal - News - YumaSun.

*Arizona Supreme Court.
**The ballot to the San Luis city council.

Nils is not a Russian name.... ? It's common in Scandinavia, maybe Baltic states too.. Maybe he's of mixed parentage.

Он Нил, а не Нильс.

Nils Ušakovs - is Latvianized form which is written in his passport and all official documents.
Many foreign names and surnames are changed like that.

s is the nominative ending in Latvian.

Originally Posted by nulle

Nils Ušakovs - is Latvianized form which is written in his passport and all official documents.
Many foreign names and surnames are changed like that.

Шарик! Шарик! Молчание. - Шарик! Шарик! Молчание. - Шарикас! Шарикас! - Гавс! Гавс!

В центре событий с Анной Прохоровой 29.01.2012 - YouTube
I'm not surprised anymore that people like mishau think that we in Latvia are idolizing Nazis...

Originally Posted by Doomer

Шарик! Шарик! Молчание. - Шарик! Шарик! Молчание. - Шарикас! Шарикас! - Гавс! Гавс!