Thread: Moscow Mayor goes on to evict families from their homes

Originally Posted by TATY

Originally Posted by Scorpio

"KGB's successors"? Oh, no. Another stinking piece of propaganda BS, I guess. Don't even bother to read.

What? They said that because no-one in the UK knows what the FSB is, but people know what the KGB is. And the FSB is the successor to the KGB.

In other words, this newspaper's comments aren't stupid and ignorant by themselves -- they are just adapted to stupidity and ignorance of target audience? Very well, this makes everything clear. Alas, my question remains: why I must waste my time reading such a nonsense?

Originally Posted by TATY

Funny how anything criticising Russia is propaganda.

"Criticising" and "brainwashing" are different things. A little hint: when, back in 1980's, Soviet TV showed poor unemployed americans living in the cardboard boxes, or european protesting against american missiles in Europe... was it "criticising" the West, or...?

Originally Posted by mishau_

Maybe russians should go to india or china to take reproduction lessons.

No, Indians and Chinese will be invited here for reproduction of the population.

Why not? Or you prefer to invite the Turks, Algerians and North Africans, as the Europe does? Hmm, remembering some fresh newreports from France this doesn't look as a good idea...

Originally Posted by mishau_

Khovanskaya also remarked sarcastically in her radio interview that the city authorities first must evict their own wives and also families of the Russian goverment ministers from Rublevka and take that ground for the city's needs. It would be in full harmony with the law, she said.

Yes, stangely she is right. It will be according to the law. So what?

As far as I am aware, the FSB consider themselves the successor to the KGB. If they can, why can't anyone else?

Honestly Scorpio, your apparent need to defend the honour of your homeland is really quite hysterical sometimes.

Originally Posted by mishau_

Единственный эффективный способ разрешения ситуации в Южном Бутове - приостановка судебного решения о выселении жильцов, заявила депутат ГД РФ Галина Хованская. По ее словам, "данное судебное решение противоречит статье 49 Земельного кодекса РФ, согласно которой изъятие недвижимости у граждан возможно только в исключительных случаях, для государственных нужд".

Hmm-hmm, now we are appealing to RF Land Code? No problem, let's look at it, too:

http://www.garant.ru/main/12024624-007.htm#7000

Статья 49. Изъятие, в том числе путем выкупа, земельных участков для государственных или муниципальных нужд
1. Изъятие, в том числе путем выкупа, земельных участков для государственных или муниципальных нужд осуществляется в исключительных случаях, связанных с:
1) выполнением международных обязательств Российской Федерации;

2) размещением следующих объектов государственного или муниципального значения при отсутствии других вариантов возможного размещения этих объектов;
объекты федеральных энергетических систем и объекты энергетических систем регионального значения;
объекты использования атомной энергии;
объекты обороны и безопасности;
объекты федерального транспорта, путей сообщения, информатики и связи, а также объекты транспорта, путей сообщения, информатики и связи регионального значения;
объекты, обеспечивающие космическую деятельность;
объекты, обеспечивающие статус и защиту Государственной границы Российской Федерации;
линейные объекты федерального и регионального значения, обеспечивающие деятельность субъектов естественных монополий;
объекты электро-, газо-, тепло- и водоснабжения муниципального значения;
автомобильные дороги общего пользования в границах населенных пунктов и между населенными пунктами, мосты и иные транспортные инженерные сооружения местного значения в границах населенных пунктов и вне границ населенных пунктов;
3) иными обстоятельствами в установленных федеральными законами случаях, а применительно к изъятию, в том числе путем выкупа, земельных участков из земель, находящихся в собственности субъектов Российской Федерации или муниципальной собственности, в случаях, установленных законами субъектов Российской Федерации.
2. Утратил силу с 5 января 2005 г.

3. Условия и порядок изъятия, в том числе путем выкупа, земельных участков для государственных или муниципальных нужд устанавливаются статьей 55 настоящего Кодекса.

Take a look at the point 3, about "different circumstances"...

Originally Posted by Layne

Originally Posted by TATY

As the population plumets by 700,000 a year

Is this true? Are they selling that many russian brides? Maybe russians should go to india or china to take reproduction lessons.

Yes it is true. But anyway more than 200 years needed to all people die.
Also linear forecasts are erroneous, because no one situation can be stable for long time.

China has big population problem. China population ages, working population decrases.

P.S.: Good advice for all: listen mass media less, think more.

The condition of compensation in this case is irrelevant. In fact they were left without any place to live. They need to get appropriatte compensation. I think Khovanskaya deserves more trust since she's experienced a lot. As for the paragraph, I paid attention to these lines

3) иными обстоятельствами в установленных федеральными законами случаях, а применительно к изъятию, в том числе путем выкупа, земельных участков из земель, находящихся в собственности субъектов Российской Федерации или муниципальной собственности, в случаях, установленных законами субъектов Российской Федерации.

I think the order of all those proceedings must be examined first. No one has a right to deprive people of their property wihtout essencial grounds. I think the officials must leave their cottages first in order to compensate all the expenses people invested into their property. The main idea I'm talking about is that people don't have protection if some one will come to approoriate their propertry.

Процитировать что-ли ответ Лужкова всем турецким султанам, исключительно для равновесия:

"Мы с каждой семьей будем работать в режиме закона, будем работать в том числе и по этой семье в режиме судебного решения, будем работать в режиме справедливости, но жлобства мы не допустим, потому, что это жлобство касается других жителей, тех, которые стоят на очереди на жилье", - заявил Юрий Лужков, мэр Москвы.

Originally Posted by scotcher

As far as I am aware, the FSB consider themselves the successor to the KGB. If they can, why can't anyone else?

Strictly speaking, FSB never officially stated, what it is successor of the KGB.

Originally Posted by scotcher

Honestly Scorpio, your apparent need to defend the honour of your homeland is really quite hysterical sometimes.

You don't realise my intents. This is not the question of "honour of your homeland"! I'm talking more about honor of poor western press readers, who are blatantly and shamelessly brainwashed by their own media. Do they realise, what it's their problem, not Russia's one?

I just found the new fresh example of the problem I'm talking about: article in International Herald Tribune (http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/06/23/news/arussia.php):

"Before I moved here, I expected to queue for a week for some bread or a grotty potato," said Karen Hughes, a native of Scotland and a mother of four who has lived four years in Moscow.

When Hughes arrived, she had 17 kilograms, or about 37 pounds, of Weetabix cereal with her luggage. When she went to the supermarket, she found Cadbury chocolates and coffee and stacks of bread.

Originally Posted by Scorpio

Strictly speaking, FSB never officially stated, what it is successor of the KGB.

You think so? Maybe you should have a look at the FSB's own website. Their History section traces their roots back all the way to the Checka, and their list of leaders goes all the way back to Iron Felix Dzerzhinskii.

http://www.fsb.ru/history/organi.html

http://www.fsb.ru/history/liders.html

It seems pretty clear to me that they value their roots and consider themselves the successor of the various Soviet services.

Originally Posted by Scorpio

You don't realise my intents. This is not the question of "honour of your homeland"! I'm talking more about honor of poor western press readers, who are blatantly and shamelessly brainwashed by their own media. Do they realise, what it's their problem, not Russia's one?

This is exactly what I mean Scorpio. Most 'poor western readers' are exactly as pig-ignorant of life in Russia as most Russians are of life in the UK or US, and both are fed as much horse-sh1t by their equally, in turns pig-ignorant, lazy, jingoistic, biased, and blickered press, as each other.

There simply doesn't need to be an anti-Russian consiracy or bias in the western press for this to occur, any more than there needs to be an anti-western consiracy in the Russian press for some of the chauvanistic drivel that passes for news over there to be written.

It's all a question of scale. You are quite right to question the motives and tone of articles written about your country when you feel they are innaccurate or unfair, but when you regularly get hysterical over a use of the tiniest marginally outdated stereotype in an op-ed piece it just detracts from whatever perfectly salient points you make elsewhere.

"Мы с каждой семьей будем работать в режиме закона, будем работать в том числе и по этой семье в режиме судебного решения, будем работать в режиме справедливости, но жлобства мы не допустим, потому, что это жлобство касается других жителей, тех, которые стоят на очереди на жилье", - заявил Юрий Лужков, мэр Москвы.

That's mega-hypocritical, the compensation must be appropriate that's all or else he must leave his apparmetnt first for the sake of those queuing. Why do the other dwellers have to get new apparments on account of those evicted who invested their money and now are going to be deprivated of their property and land they were born and lived? What a load of noncence?

The laughable formal compensation that mayor offers to them mismatches tremendously. All of the officials have proved to be too cowardly or arrogent to get down to a direct dialog with the city dwellers. Governers who can't talk to people and find compromises are very unskillful and not worthy of being in power. I know that perfectly. In each department you will find either a revolving door or a turnstile and a few policemen as security just in order to hide from city dwellers. You know why? Because they all are wretched raiders and it's become a habit with them to use the unfriendly merging tactics in their governing and send marines to bludgeon innocent civillians. As that land has recently become part of Moscow it in no way means that the mayor at once have to evict all who live there. Over 70 villages in Moscow are going to be demolished. It's too big a sacrifice for "the needs of the city".

Scorpio, they may come to me and order me out at any moment and you're trying to convince me that it will be fine. What a sort of absurd!

Originally Posted by mishau_

That's mega-hypocritical, the compensation must be appropriate that's all or else he must leave his apparmetnt first for the sake of those queuing. Why do the other dwellers have to get new apparments on account of those evicted who invested their money and now are going to be deprivated of their property and land they were born and lived? What a load of noncence?

If law isn't on your side, don't hesitate to resort to emotions: "land they were born and lived..."
Lots of villages were demolished since the beginning of 50's... they are now parts of Moscow, and so what? The former villagers are now residents of capital city. Do you really think they'll be happy still living in village conditions?

Originally Posted by mishau_

The laughable formal compensation that mayor offers to them mismatches tremendously.

Normal Moscow flat in exchange for wooden hovel. Does it look like a "laughable" compensation? (Flat costs 10 times more, at least.)

Originally Posted by mishau_

In each department you will find either a revolving door or a turnstile and a few policemen as security just in order to hide from city dwellers. You know why? Because they all are wretched raiders and it's become a habit with them to use the unfriendly merging tactics in their governing and send marines to bludgeon innocent civillians.

Another load of nonsence from your, which is a bit laughable to comment.
Yeah, some offices have revolving doors and police guards. Some commercial firms have a good security too... and even some private apartments have locks and keys... SO WHAT?

Originally Posted by mishau_

As that land has recently become part of Moscow it in no way means that the mayor at once have to evict all who live there. Over 70 villages in Moscow are going to be demolished. It's too big a sacrifice for "the needs of the city".

Oh, these poor "sacrificed" villages -- with semi-rotten wooden huts nearly as comfortable as henhouses, nightmarish pebble roads, faulty electricity and outdoor water pumps and other services! Why aren't these villages in UNESCO cultural heritage list? This surely will stop Luzhkov from demolishing them!

Originally Posted by mishau_

Scorpio, they may come to me and order me out at any moment and you're trying to convince me that it will be fine. What a sort of absurd!

Really or kidding? So, may I ask, where do you live?

I live in a building the fate of which is still unclear, though the building is prefectly steady.

If law isn't on your side,

Actually, we don't know on which side the law is. Any court decision does not stand for the law yet. In this country that's just it. There's a gap between the court and the law in this coutry. When the gab is too big the weak are being beaten. If all those evicted people had enough money to hire good lawyers, I think the police squard would never come to them. Courts here make so many mistakes and they are so unskillful and corrupted that every now and then the media are not too shy to decribe that, nothing to hide. The second part is how the executives use the law. When a law needs to be applied in some extraordinary cases (like borders demarcation), but the authorities use it here and there for their own puproses, I think such a law is too bad and must be improved. The law wasn't on the side of Jesus Christ whe he was executed nor was the law on the side of people burn on a stake by the Catholic church's suggestions. And the law did not support people who were evicted during Stalin's deportations. But we all understand that all those actions were too misanthropical. Under cover of the law today in Russia raider attacks and unfrieldly merging are beign commited everywhere. So I think the law must not be the pretext for any arbitrariness of the authorities or maybe some other raiders.

Yeah, some offices have revolving doors and police guards. Some commercial firms have a good security too... and even some private apartments have locks and keys... SO WHAT?

Maybe you didn't see the situation as appropriate, but I mean to say it just too expensive for them, especially if only you saw what kind if system they install. Policemen that armed with guns have you seen that at any commercial office?

Oh, these poor "sacrificed" villages -- with semi-rotten wooden huts nearly as comfortable as henhouses, nightmarish pebble roads, faulty electricity and outdoor water pumps and other services!

I don't know who made this assesment, but I saw people there that invested their money into cunstruction of brick nice cottages. All who wanted new flats got them indeed and their don't regrett, ok, but we're talking about the people who can't agrree that some one will decide what will be better for them and what will not. The rent may be inacceptable for those people after all. If my computer is outdated, no one is supposed to make me throw it and get a new one from him. It's against the law. I myself will decide what to buy and when.