Thread: Madrid

Originally Posted by bad manners

Oh, and the war is over. What we're seeing now is mopping up of the bandits.

I don't even know how to react to such naivity. Sounds like a US general in the late 60s about Vietnam... How many years can one "just mop up bandits"?

[quote=Gollandski Yozh]

Originally Posted by "bad manners":l7deezf9

Oh, and the war is over. What we're seeing now is mopping up of the bandits.

I don't even know how to react to such naivity. Sounds like a US general in the late 60s about Vietnam...[/quote:l7deezf9]
Could be. But the Russians have a well established record of dealing with nationalists and bandits resolutely and successfully. The Americans, almighty though they might be, have no such accomplishments to date -- and the way it looks in A and I (as well as V and almost any letter of the Latin alphabet) they are not going to.

If this historic reasoning means nothing for you, let's consider the facts of the present day. Gelayev, for one. He did not die exactly as a commander engaged in a large scale war. He died as a bandit who could run but could not hide. That does look like mopping up.

It's not mopping up or a "large scale war", it's a guerilla war.

If you don't like the US example, what about Afghanistan? Also, a war that was supposedly over after the Afghan cities were captured. Then you had Kabul, now Grozny. The Chechens, like the Afghan resistance, rule in the mountains and at night. Guess who lost in Afghanistan...

Originally Posted by Gollandski Yozh

It's not mopping up or a "large scale war", it's a guerilla war.

If you don't like the US example, what about Afghanistan? Also, a war that was supposedly over after the Afghan cities were captured. Then you had Kabul, now Grozny.

Who cares about Afghanistan? It was foreign ground. The Afghani never attacked Russia. The Caucasus is not foreign, and the Chechens did attack Russia. They also did a lot of bad things to the Russians. It is a very different story.

The Chechens, like the Afghan resistance, rule in the mountains and at night. Guess who lost in Afghanistan...

In the case of Afghanistan, what ruled was the huge help by the USA and the other Western countries. Where do you think they bought millions of Italian land mines? Or where did they get the money? Or thousands of SAMs? Or who sponsored the training camps in Pakistan? What happened to those same Afghani who must be ruling like hell in the mountains against the Americans right now? I have not heard much of their exploits lately.

If the recent information correct, this terrorist acts weren't work of ETA.

So, exact comparison with Chechen situation looks inappropriate.

However, the if the Spanish involvement in war in Iraq was reason for the attacks, it does not improve the situation. Maybe, even worsen it.
If all "wars with terrorism" results in new terrorist attacks, there's something deeply wrong about them.

Compare that with

http://hrw.org/reports/2004/afghanistan ... oc64778169

And how is that different?

It isn't, at least not vastly. Whence came this idea that I am making the case for the Americans and their footling coalition? Job lot of bad 'uns as far as I can see. If one good thing has come out of the Madrid carnage, it's that the Spanish have gone and got themselves a real left-of-centre government disinclined to involve itself in disastrous wars/border disputes. Would that the Russians and Americans could do the same.

Originally Posted by waxwing

At the risk of becoming one of those internet saddos who can't admit it when he's wrong, I wonder about the ethnic split? The figures in that poll are for a sample of the population of Chechnya. What proportion of the population are ethnic Chechens, and what proportion are Russians? I don't make any moral implication from it, just want to know.

Can't find any recent figures (any help here?). Shouldn't matter though, should it? Ethnic Chechen or not, they all have to live there: no minority has the right to impose itself simply by virtue of being noisier than the rest put together.

Agreed joysof, that's why I put the caveat about morality. Interested if anyone knows the figures though.

Originally Posted by joysof

Compare that with

http://hrw.org/reports/2004/afghanistan ... oc64778169

And how is that different?

It isn't, at least not vastly. Whence came this idea that I am making the case for the Americans and their footling coalition?

Well, did you not say that the Russian government was sanctioning this and that in Chechnya? My curiosity now urges me to find out whether you think that the American government sanctions those not vastly different things in Afghanistan. If you say "no", then I shall like to know why it is not the case. If you say "yes", then I shall lean back and remark that "the government-sanctioned war crimes are the de facto world standard in the 'war against terror'".

Originally Posted by joysof

Can't find any recent figures (any help here?). Shouldn't matter though, should it? Ethnic Chechen or not, they all have to live there: no minority has the right to impose itself simply by virtue of being noisier than the rest put together.

Actually, it is quite simple. Most ethnic non-Chechens had left Chechnya before the first Chechen war, because their lives were very much at stake there. So you can very safely assume that whatever population is left in Chechnya is very homogenous ethnically.

An interesting twist is that the Chechen modus vivendi is highly clan-oriented. That is, there is a number of powerful clans in Chechnya, and they often have conflicting views and goals.

Originally Posted by bad manners

Originally Posted by joysof

Compare that with

http://hrw.org/reports/2004/afghanistan ... oc64778169

And how is that different?

It isn't, at least not vastly. Whence came this idea that I am making the case for the Americans and their footling coalition?

Well, did you not say that the Russian government was sanctioning this and that in Chechnya? My curiosity now urges me to find out whether you think that the American government sanctions those not vastly different things in Afghanistan. If you say "no", then I shall like to know why it is not the case. If you say "yes", then I shall lean back and remark that "the government-sanctioned war crimes are the de facto world standard in the 'war against terror'".

Yes and yes.

De facto is it; certainly ain't de jure. It's a crying shame that the United Nations is too toothless to deal with the larger 'rogue states'.

Not a 'world standard': you don't get the Swedes and the Dutch doing this sort of thing, or even the Japeanese for that matter. Sadly, though, it seems to be the modus operandi (Latin is fun, eh?) as far as the most powerful - the overmighty, over-rich and over-moralistic - are concerned.

Western European social democracy is the way forward. Give me the rank corruption of Chirac and Mitterand over the odious foreign policy of Bush and Putin and I'll be a happy little liberal.

Originally Posted by bad manners

Who cares about Afghanistan? It was foreign ground. The Afghani never attacked Russia. The Caucasus is not foreign, and the Chechens did attack Russia. They also did a lot of bad things to the Russians. It is a very different story.

Beside the point. It means nothing for the question "Is this a mere mopping up operation or a war?" we were addressing.

In the case of Afghanistan, what ruled was the huge help by the USA and the other Western countries. Where do you think they bought millions of Italian land mines? Or where did they get the money? Or thousands of SAMs? Or who sponsored the training camps in Pakistan?

Chechens can safely retreat into the mountains and Georgia. They get their money from the Saudis, for example, as well as weapons. Also, they can buy weapons from every poor Russian soldier who needs a few extra rubles to supplement the pathetic pay he receives from the government.

What happened to those same Afghani who must be ruling like hell in the mountains against the Americans right now? I have not heard much of their exploits lately.

Western forces control only Kabul, nothing more. Rural Afghanistan is controlled by warlords. You hear little of them, because the US doesn't give a sh*t. They just land their helicopters where they think Al-Qaeda can be found and leave again. So, if you don't fight them, they don't have to fight back.

Western forces control only Kabul, nothing more. Rural Afghanistan is controlled by warlords

I can tell you from first hand experience that this is not the case. The US military has numerous staging areas throughout Afghanistan from which offensives and patrols are continuously dispatched. Needless to say, the US military is not going to tell you where they have deployed troops. The only areas not under US control are in terrain that is not conducive to static occupation. Even these areas, however, are open to US ground attack in five minutes or less and are usually patrolled by unmanned CIA probes.

A country as large as Afghanistan with a fairly small US presence is controlled by the US army? I very, very much doubt that. I've read reports (from the Dutch and German soldiers in Kabul) that paint a completely different picture...

Originally Posted by joysof

Not a 'world standard': you don't get the Swedes and the Dutch doing this sort of thing, or even the Japeanese for that matter.

The first question here is "where would they do that". If you have a non-empty set of answers, then there is indeed something to be said about the morality of the filthy war mongers such as the Russian and American governments.

Originally Posted by bad manners

Originally Posted by joysof

Not a 'world standard': you don't get the Swedes and the Dutch doing this sort of thing, or even the Japeanese for that matter.

The first question here is "where would they do that". If you have a non-empty set of answers, then there is indeed something to be said about the morality of the filthy war mongers such as the Russian and American governments.

The fact remains that these nations don't involve themselves in the international brawlers' club which convenes every time a pointless Third World theocracy steps out of line. The Japanese, of course, used to invade their neighbours in a whimsical and haphazard fashion, but seem to have grown out of it.

What, pray, is a 'non-empty set of answers'?

[quote=Gollandski Yozh]

Originally Posted by "bad manners":2tzwkkhe

Who cares about Afghanistan? It was foreign ground. The Afghani never attacked Russia. The Caucasus is not foreign, and the Chechens did attack Russia. They also did a lot of bad things to the Russians. It is a very different story.

Beside the point. It means nothing for the question "Is this a mere mopping up operation or a war?" we were addressing.[/quote:2tzwkkhe]
Oh really? What was your .sig saying just a week ago? That does not mean anything to you, does it?

Chechens can safely retreat into the mountains and Georgia.

What fucking Chechens? Wake up and realize that there may be a few dozens of bandits running about the mountains. Retreat, my ass. Need I remind you again of that Gelayev guy who died while he was trying to "retreat"?

They get their money from the Saudis, for example, as well as weapons. Also, they can buy weapons from every poor Russian soldier who needs a few extra rubles to supplement the pathetic pay he receives from the government.

Not nearly the same scale. Ask you girlfriend about неуловимый Джо.

Western forces control only Kabul, nothing more.

BS. Stop taking anti-American propaganda for granted.

Originally Posted by joysof

What, pray, is a 'non-empty set of answers'?

Funny, it looks like it is empty actually.

[quote=bad manners][quote="Gollandski Yozh"2rpf7hs]

Originally Posted by "bad manners":o2rpf7hs

Who cares about Afghanistan? It was foreign ground. The Afghani never attacked Russia. The Caucasus is not foreign, and the Chechens did attack Russia. They also did a lot of bad things to the Russians. It is a very different story.

Beside the point. It means nothing for the question "Is this a mere mopping up operation or a war?" we were addressing.[/quote2rpf7hs]
Oh really? What was your .sig saying just a week ago? That does not mean anything to you, does it?[/quote2rpf7hs]

Soviet propaganda. Sounded cool. That's it.

[quote2rpf7hs]Chechens can safely retreat into the mountains and Georgia.

What @@@@ Chechens? Wake up and realize that there may be a few dozens of bandits running about the mountains. Retreat, my ass. Need I remind you again of that Gelayev guy who died while he was trying to "retreat"?[/quote2rpf7hs]

A few dozen? And still they hold out. My, the Russian army is in an even more pathetic state than I thought... A few dozen. That's a joke. Than why is the "mopping up" been going on for years now?

[quote2rpf7hs]They get their money from the Saudis, for example, as well as weapons. Also, they can buy weapons from every poor Russian soldier who needs a few extra rubles to supplement the pathetic pay he receives from the government.

Not nearly the same scale. Ask you girlfriend about неуловимый Джо.[/quote2rpf7hs]

Hеуловимый Джо? All I know is that I told my gf about a documentary I saw on Dutch TV on Russian soldiers being poorly paid, housed and supplied. And their commander stealing part of their wages. She said: "Yes, that sounds all too familiar."

[quote2rpf7hs]Western forces control only Kabul, nothing more.

BS. Stop taking anti-American propaganda for granted.[/quote2rpf7hs]

I'm not basing myself on anti-American propaganda, but on the reports of the Dutch soldiers who have been serving in Kabul until recently. I'd say they have been in a better position to judge the situation than you. No offense.

Originally Posted by Gollandski Yozh

A few dozen? And still they hold out.

Who exactly are holding out there? Would you care to name a couple of great accomplishments they had within the last couple of weeks?

Than why is the "mopping up" been going on for years now?

How many criminals do you have in Holland? I bet a lot more than a few dozens. And lemme count, wow, the Dutch police have been unable to mop them up for centuries. You do have a pathetic police there in Holland. And an army as well I would say.

Hеуловимый Джо? All I know is that I told my gf about a documentary I saw on Dutch TV on Russian soldiers being poorly paid, housed and supplied. And their commander stealing part of their wages. She said: "Yes, that sounds all too familiar."

So? It was the same during WWII.

but on the reports of the Dutch soldiers

The soldiers of the fifth most pathetic army in the old NATO (that is, marginally less pathetic than those of Luxembourg, Denmark, Norway, and Belgium, and as pathetic as those of the Czech Republic and Hungary)? Reputable source? Gimme a break.