Thread: Madrid

Of course, why would a Dutch soldier who has been in Afghanistan know more about the situation on the ground there than the great bm? What have the Netherlands ever done to you?

OK, I see that again you have resorted to your old tricks; offending people. I try to conduct a civil discussion (knowing full well how that gay marriage-thing got out of hand), but you are not interested in that. Since you quite obviously are incapable of a mature discussion, it's time for me to leave you here with the poison you have in you. I will not be drawn in to a mudslinging contest with you again.

Do NOT feed the trolls. Let them be, let them die!

Originally Posted by Gollandski Yozh

Of course, why would a Dutch soldier who has been in Afghanistan know more about the situation on the ground there than the great bm? What have the Netherlands ever done to you?

OK, I see that again you have resorted to your old tricks; offending people. I try to conduct a civil discussion (knowing full well how that gay marriage-thing got out of hand), but you are not interested in that.

Where did I offend you? Oh, I mentioned that the Dutch police and the army are incapable of dealing with the Dutch crime. Mortal offence, I see.

I assume that in a "civil discussion" (whatever that may mean) one can only say that it is the Russian police and army that are pathetic and incapable of anything, but condemned shall he be who toucheth the Holy Great Low Countries in a similar way.

Since you quite obviously are incapable of a mature discussion, it's time for me to leave you here with the poison you have in you. I will not be drawn in to a mudslinging contest with you again.

Pathetic. Our Йож is so deeply offended when he is no more able to stand by his loserish propaganda.

EDIT: http://www.nato.int/docu/pr/2001/table6.pdf

The Netherlands: 52 thousand men in the army. 2-3 divisions. What kind of army is that?

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europ ... therlands/

"The first 70 German and 30 Dutch soldiers will fly from Cologne to join British and French troops already in the country on Tuesday, German Defence Minister Rudolf Scharping told a news conference."

"The Netherlands has offered up to 200 for the stability force and will be under the command of the German battalion."

I bet when the whole three dozens (huge number, really!) of the Dutch soldiers were dispatched to Afghanistan, they were guarded by a couple of American battalions, because the loss of these soldiers would have been too damaging for the Netherlands. No wonder they did not see anything outside Kabul.

Originally Posted by bad manners

Originally Posted by joysof

What, pray, is a 'non-empty set of answers'?

Funny, it looks like it is empty actually.

Curiouser and curiouser. Am I going stupid or are you going cryptic?

All right, joysof, let's go back to my question:

The first question here is "where would they do that".

So far you have not been able to produce a single answer to this question. That means your set of answers does not contain any answer (at the time of writing), or the set is empty. Null. Nil. Zero. Zilch. Zed.

Originally Posted by bad manners

All right, joysof, let's go back to my question:

The first question here is "where would they do that".

So far you have not been able to produce a single answer to this question. That means your set of answers does not contain any answer (at the time of writing), or the set is empty. Null. Nil. Zero. Zilch. Zed.

Don't really understand the question (clearly I am going stupid). Also, I rather assumed it to be rhetorical.

The Dutch could invade Denmark; Sweden could invade Laos.

Does this help?

No, they could not. A couple of messages earlier in this thread I gave a link to a NATO document with the strengths of the NATO member armies. The Netherlands had no more than three full divisions, which is at least four times less than necessary for a successful invasion into Denmark.

Plus, Denmark is not an underdeveloped country with some funny nationalistic ideas, so comparing that with the American and Russian invasions is simply wrong. In the context of our previous discussion (Chechnya, Afghanistan), it should have been clear.

Now, Sweden vs. Laos is more interesting, but not feasible anyway. Laos has a pretty strong army, and Sweden, even though it might be technically superior, lacks the means of projecting her force onto Laos. And, again, the political background is just as wrong as in the first case.

I will clarify my point. The European countries, with the possible exception of France, are simply not capable of occupying anything and conducting war-like policy. The UK, technically, might, but it is not independent, so the decision will have to be made in Washington, DC. The military impotence of Europe is not accidental, it is a result of WWII. As is the lack of territories where they could exercise their military power. It was realized by France long time ago, hence its special status. Germany, following her unification, has been gaining military power, but it will take her much time to become psychologically able to use that power. Till that happens, we’ll continue hearing about "peaceful western democracies".

Originally Posted by bad manners

No, they could not. A couple of messages earlier in this thread I gave a link to a NATO document with the strengths of the NATO member armies. The Netherlands had no more than three full divisions, which is at least four times less than necessary for a successful invasion into Denmark.

Who said anything about a successful invasion?

I will clarify my point. The European countries, with the possible exception of France, are simply not capable of occupying anything and conducting war-like policy. The UK, technically, might, but it is not independent, so the decision will have to be made in Washington, DC. The military impotence of Europe is not accidental, it is a result of WWII. As is the lack of territories where they could exercise their military power. It was realized by France long time ago, hence its special status. Germany, following her unification, has been gaining military power, but it will take her much time to become psychologically able to use that power. Till that happens, we’ll continue hearing about "peaceful western democracies".

Fair enough. Point taken. I repeat, however, that it would have been very easy for Sweden, Japan, Belgium, France, Laos (don't doubt it: a socialist paradise loves a good scrap...) etc. to attach themselves, by way of a token force, to the war-mongering clan: Poland did it, so - to her cost - did Spain.

Originally Posted by joysof

Originally Posted by bad manners

No, they could not. A couple of messages earlier in this thread I gave a link to a NATO document with the strengths of the NATO member armies. The Netherlands had no more than three full divisions, which is at least four times less than necessary for a successful invasion into Denmark.

Who said anything about a successful invasion?

Well, I thought we were discussing politics, not sandbox games.

Fair enough. Point taken. I repeat, however, that it would have been very easy for Sweden, Japan, Belgium, France, Laos (don't doubt it: a socialist paradise loves a good scrap...) etc. to attach themselves, by way of a token force, to the war-mongering clan: Poland did it, so - to her cost - did Spain.

I disagree: the war-mongering clan is comprised of the states who can or think they can do what it takes to be in the clan. France is strictly within the clan, thanks to her very interesting deeds in Africa and Vietnam (Cochin China, eh?) in the post-WWII era. Those that can't, play the game known as "peaceful democracies highly critical of the atrocities committed by X, Y, etc", X, Y, etc being the members of the war-mongering clan. Nothing new here, since the time immemorial the membership in one of the two clans has been granted to and revoked from any given state many times. And I have a feeling that the current status is but a momentary snapshot of the process.

[quote=bad manners]

Originally Posted by joysof

Originally Posted by "bad manners":25o92lxh

No, they could not. A couple of messages earlier in this thread I gave a link to a NATO document with the strengths of the NATO member armies. The Netherlands had no more than three full divisions, which is at least four times less than necessary for a successful invasion into Denmark.

Who said anything about a successful invasion?

Well, I thought we were discussing politics, not sandbox games.
[/quote:25o92lxh]

'Sandbox games' describes splendidly what the Americans are playing at in Iraq and Afghanistan. Point I wanted to make was that very few invasions of the past decades (Soviets in Afghanistan, Americans in Vietnam, Argentina and Black Ram Island or whatever it's called to name but a few) have amounted to unqualified - or even qualified - successes. Often, indeed, they have been characterised by the sort of foolishness it would take for the Dutch to contemplate invading Laos or the Welsh South Ossetia for that matter.

Originally Posted by joysof

'Sandbox games' describes splendidly what the Americans are playing at in Iraq and Afghanistan. Point I wanted to make was that very few invasions of the past decades (Soviets in Afghanistan, Americans in Vietnam, Argentina and Black Ram Island or whatever it's called to name but a few) have amounted to unqualified - or even qualified - successes. Often, indeed, they have been characterised by the sort of foolishness it would take for the Dutch to contemplate invading Laos or the Welsh South Ossetia for that matter.

Well, they did have some foolishness, but it was the kind of foolishness the Dutch cannot afford. How many troops were dispatched by, say, the Soviets to Afghanistan? A few divisions, and that was nothing for the USSR. They did not have to think hard about it, even if these divisions had been massacred, that would not have impacted the Soviet military power in any significant way -- not to mention they could never have been massacred because they could have always been backed up by another dozen of divisions and Afghanistan transformed into a Lunar landscape in the worst case.

But what would the Dutch do if their precious three divisions were annihilated? How would they repel the evil Danes, eh?

We'd surrender before we had a chance to fight, cooperate with the danes when they'd taken over Holland and, at the end of the war, we'd say we were in the Resistance all the time.