Thread: Latest from Ukraine

Originally Posted by eisenherz

your point/comparison to Kuba back then makes sense to me. however by extension of logic it is clear then that Russia is directly involved in activities in eastern ukraine. an admission to the obvious is long overdue.

Russia is involved the question is how.
The West claims that Russia sends weapons and regular troops to Ukraine, that is highly unlikely.
However things like: satellite images, uniforms, radios, food, as well as motivated volunteers do come to rebels from Russia. But such things also come to pro-Kiev forces(or as CNN said pro-American forces) from the West, maybe in lesser quantities.

Originally Posted by hddscan

Russia is involved the question is how.
The West claims that Russia sends weapons and regular troops to Ukraine, that is highly unlikely. ....

Ух ты, прогресс пошёл: значит, somewhat likely.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Ух ты, прогресс пошёл: значит, somewhat likely.

Let me re-phrase it to prevent double-meaning: I don't think Russia supplies arms and troops to Ukraine.
I also don't think that it's necessary to supply arms because there are a lot of weapons inside Ukraine, from the Cold War period, would be enough for 2-3 wars. As for the troops - there is also no point, because volunteers from inside Ukraine and other countries, including Russia do come to Ukraine. There are a lot of volunteers from Serbia, because they think they take their revenge against the US for losing Kosovo

Originally Posted by hddscan

Let me re-phrase it to prevent double-meaning: I don't think Russia supplies arms and troops to Ukraine.
I also don't think that it's necessary to supply arms because there are a lot of weapons inside Ukraine, from the Cold War period, would be enough for 2-3 wars. As for the troops - there is also no point, because volunteers from inside Ukraine and other countries, including Russia do come to Ukraine. There are a lot of volunteers from Serbia, because they think they take their revenge against the US for losing Kosovo

Это ничего: ты можешь так думать. Но тогда почему украинские войска ни разу не наступали, только обороняются? И даже оборониться нормально не могут.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Это ничего: ты можешь так думать. Но тогда почему украинские войска ни разу не наступали, только обороняются? И даже оборониться нормально не могут.

Я не согласен
Удачные наступления ВСУ, 2014г.:
- 15 апреля украинские военные вернули контроль над аэропортом в районе городов Славянск и Краматорск
- 7 мая украинским батальонам Нацгвардии удалось захватить здание горсовета Мариуполя
- 26 мая около двух часов дня украинские силовики нанесли удар по повстанцам, попытавшимся взять под контроль международный аэропорт Донецка. Были задействованы два самолёта Су-25, два МиГ-29 и 4 вертолёта Ми-24, была произведена высадка десанта
- 2 июня украинские силовики совершили авианалёт на Луганск, в результате чего погибли 8 человек
- 13 июня батальон «Азов» при поддержке украинских силовиков и бронетехники зачистили городской центр Мариуполя от повстанцев ДНР.
- 5 июля контроль над Славянском перешёл к украинским силовикам, а 6 июля украинский флаг был поднят над Дружковкой и Артёмовском.
- 22 июля повстанцы отступили из Северодонецка, Лисичанска, Кировска и Попасной. На две недели был утерян контроль над Саур-Могилой.
источник
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Вооруж...Украины

После разгрома под Илловайском в августе ВСУ потеряло множество боеспособных частей - людей и техники и начались в основном оборонительные противостояния
Кстати прорыв из Артемовска в Дебальцево и объединение с остатками регулярных частей ВСУ под Углегорском, летом-осенью 2014 тоже можно назвать удачным наступление ВСУ, правда сейчас они очень неудачно попали в окружение, а командование их попросту слило

Originally Posted by hddscan

Я не согласен
Удачные наступления ВСУ, 2014г.:
- 15 апреля украинские военные вернули контроль над аэропортом в районе городов Славянск и Краматорск
- 7 мая украинским батальонам Нацгвардии удалось захватить здание горсовета Мариуполя
- 26 мая около двух часов дня украинские силовики нанесли удар по повстанцам, попытавшимся взять под контроль международный аэропорт Донецка. Были задействованы два самолёта Су-25, два МиГ-29 и 4 вертолёта Ми-24, была произведена высадка десанта
- 2 июня украинские силовики совершили авианалёт на Луганск, в результате чего погибли 8 человек
- 13 июня батальон «Азов» при поддержке украинских силовиков и бронетехники зачистили городской центр Мариуполя от повстанцев ДНР.
- 5 июля контроль над Славянском перешёл к украинским силовикам, а 6 июля украинский флаг был поднят над Дружковкой и Артёмовском.
- 22 июля повстанцы отступили из Северодонецка, Лисичанска, Кировска и Попасной. На две недели был утерян контроль над Саур-Могилой.

После разгрома под Илловайском в августе ВСУ потеряло множество боеспособных частей - людей и техники и начались в основном оборонительные противостояния

источник
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Вооруж...Украины

А, понятно. Значит, за пять месяцев этой войны ВСУ потеряли вооружение, рассчитанное на "2 - 3 войны", и тогда, как я понимаю, Россия серьёзно вступила в действие. В общем, Украине действительно нужна помощь.

Originally Posted by Lampada

А, понятно. Значит, за пять месяцев этой войны ВСУ потеряли вооружение, рассчитанное на "2 - 3 войны", и тогда, как я понимаю, Россия серьёзно вступила в действие. В общем, Украине действительно нужна помощь.

Мне кажется вы путаете причину и следствие, я попробую объяснить
Вооружение и сейчас есть, причем у ВСУ его значительно больше.
Но после потери части вооружения под Илловайском это вооружение перешло на сторону ВСН, что позволило им существенно укрепить армию, это раз. Кстати в Дебальцево сейчас происходит тоже самое, ссылочки на видео с оставленными ВСУ ящиками со снарядами надо давать, или так поверите?
Второе, под Илловайском у ВСУ было потеряно много специалистов-военных, там же был потерян боевой дух и отношение к верховному командованию - Илловайск таки оставили умирать. Восполнить кадровых военных Киев не смог, поэтому решил проблему кадров с помощью мобилизации, но это не те люди, да и воевать многие не хотят, а идут просто потому, что боятся сесть в тюрьму, поэтому дезертирство с поля боя имеет место быть.

Originally Posted by hddscan

... as well as motivated volunteers do come to rebels from Russia...

In the country where i live it is illegal for citizens to participate in armed forces and wars of other countries. If citizens here were to be involved in war-actions of other countries, they could expect to be arrested when they return. Do you know if in terms of Russian law this is permitted?

Originally Posted by eisenherz

In the country where i live it is illegal for citizens to participate in armed forces and wars of other countries. If citizens here were to be involved in war-actions of other countries, they could expect to be arrested when they return. Do you know if in terms of Russian law this is permitted?

I don't know anything about such a law and don't know if it exists in Russia.

Originally Posted by hddscan

But such things also come to pro-Kiev forces(or as CNN said pro-American forces) from the West, maybe in lesser quantities.

Well, those limits are now a thing of the past: Первые британские бронемашины Saxon прибыли в Одессу - BBC Russian

Как сообщили украинские СМИ, партия из 20 машин прибыла по назначению, в ближайшем будущем ожидаются еще 55.

"Эти "Саксоны" пришли без оружия, мы будем ставить на них боевой блок, который должен обеспечить эффективное огневое прикрытие Национальной гвардии или другим подразделениям, которым они будут поставляться", - рассказал журналистам секретарь Совета национальной безопасности и обороны Украины Александр Турчинов во время посещения учебного центра Национальной гвардии.

По словам секретаря СНБО, после испытаний бронеавтомобили "сразу поступят на вооружение наших военных".

By the way, note that the latter part of the news in which Turchinov said those armoured vehicles would be equipped with weaponry and sent to the troops is missing from the English version of the article on the same informational resource: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-31465365

Somehow, the British side does not see the delivery of those armoured vehicles as British involvement in the war:

She said the delivery did not represent an escalation of British involvement in Ukraine.

She said: "As the foreign secretary has made clear, our policy since the beginning of the crisis has been to supply non-lethal assistance to the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

"They offer protective mobility to personnel, and are defensive in nature; they are not close combat vehicles."

So, the British regard the delivery of the 75 armoured vehicles which are said by Ukraine to be equipped with the weaponry and sent to the Ukrainian troops is totally ok. I guess, in response, Russia could officially provide Novorossia with tanks which has their guns locked with padlocks and claim that the delivery of those armoured vehicles does not represent Russian involvement in the war and only provide armoured shield to the tank crew. And the fact that the Novorossian army can break the padlock and use the gun that is the sovereign right of the Novorossian military and has nothing to do with Russia. How sweet..

Originally Posted by hddscan

Russia is involved the question is how.
The West claims that Russia sends weapons and regular troops to Ukraine, that is highly unlikely.
However things like: satellite images, uniforms, radios, food, as well as motivated volunteers do come to rebels from Russia. But such things also come to pro-Kiev forces(or as CNN said pro-American forces) from the West, maybe in lesser quantities.

LOL! So, the US is sending things but Russia is not? Well, at least, the West is not sending weapons (yet?). It's obvious Russia is sending weapons and military gear. There's no way there would be such an unlimited supply already in the Eastern part of Ukraine.

Russia shelled Ukrainians from within its own territory, says study | World news | The Guardian

Remembering the shelling: 'We saw a glow, they were burned alive' | World news | The Guardian

Putinoids don't have any credibility - Russia doesn't either - 'There's no green men...' Russia obviously sanctions anything the rebels are doing. They could stop this if they wanted but they don't care that people are killing each other. I know Ukrainians don't like this (idea) but, IMHO, they should try to figure out, at what point, will the rebels stop....and go from there.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

It's obvious Russia is sending weapons and military gear.

Could you explain it to me how it's done, logistically?
Just FYI there are OSCE observers on a border between Russia and Ukraine.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Russia shelled Ukrainians from within its own territory, says study | World news | The Guardian

Measuring diameter of craters on satellite images and predicting where a shell came from based solemnly on that is not even wahtaboutery it's just BS.

And here is a confirmation, from the very article

An independent military forensics expert warned that the accuracy of crater analysis in determining direction of fire on the basis of satellite photography was scientifically unproven

Bottom line - BS

Originally Posted by hddscan

Measuring diameter of craters on satellite images and predicting where a shell came from based solemnly on that is not even wahtaboutery it's just BS.

And here is a confirmation, from the very article

Bottom line - BS

So what? IT just says it's unproven. There's lots of info reported that Russia has been involved but of course, every single one of them is denied by Putinoids. Yeah, I suppose NONE are accurate. But, logically, Russia borders this region in Ukraine and the rebels never seem to run out of military equipment. I am using a logical argument here. You are not.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

So what? IT just says it's unproven. There's lots of info reported that Russia has been involved but of course, every single one of them is denied by Putinoids. Yeah, I suppose NONE are accurate. But, logically, Russia borders this region in Ukraine and the rebels never seem to run out of military equipment. I am using a logical argument here. You are not.

About credibility of Kiev's "proofs"
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/14/wo...tion.html?_r=0

When Senator James Inhofe took the floor of the Senate on Wednesday to argue for arming the Ukrainian military, he brought with him what he called indisputable proof of Moscow’s support for the separatists in eastern Ukraine — a poster with three large photographs of “Russian tanks entering Ukrainian territory.” In his prepared remarks, Mr. Inhofe, a Republican from Oklahoma, said the images of “Russian troops in T-72 tanks, B.T.R. armored personnel carriers, and B.M.P. infantry fighting vehicles entering eastern Ukraine” constituted evidence of “an invasion of the Ukraine by Russia.”

In fact, one of the images showing Russian tanks in South Ossetia in 2008 that was provided to Mr. Inhofe was posted on the website of Ukraine’s foreign ministry on Aug. 1 as supposed proof that “a long convoy of armored vehicles and several KAMAZ with armed men crossed Ukrainian-Russian border” one day earlier.

So if there is no proof then Kiev "makes" it, that's how it was done since the beginning of this conflict

Originally Posted by hddscan

.So if there is no proof then Kiev "makes" it, that's how it was done since the beginning of this conflict

LOL! Yeah, yeah, both sides accuse each other of using old videos and photographs. So, what?

You didn't answer the question. That's because you can't. The right questions aren't being asked. That's because Ukraine's leadership is inept. Imho. Their strategy is awful. They're in over their heads.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

You didn't answer the question.

Could you formulate your question in one sentence and I'll answer it?

More fakes about Russian troops in Ukraine, this time from Germany - http://rt.com/news/232963-germany-russia-tanks-ukraine/

What's the point to show all these fakes if

It's obvious Russia is sending weapons and military gear.

I mean if it's obvious why all the fakes?

Originally Posted by hddscan

More fakes about Russian troops in Ukraine, this time from Germany - http://rt.com/news/232963-germany-russia-tanks-ukraine/

What's the point to show all these fakes if
I mean if it's obvious why all the fakes?

Germany wants a reason to say out of it. Even though, they are obedient to the West (USA etc.), they have economic ties to Russia and Russia's effect on the EU mean they are divided. The rich there have money at stake so they sabotage info. It's all about money.

That's my theory on why all the fakes.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

That's my theory on why all the fakes.

You mean they show all the fakes to lose their own credibility and to confirm that there is no Russian troops in Ukraine?
Does Kiev do all the fakes for the same reason?