Thread: Latest from Ukraine

Originally Posted by 14Russian

'don't want violated freedom of Donbass.'
What 'freedom of Donbass?' Are you saying that the Novorossiya territory is a 'democracy?'

Why does it have to be a democracy? Not everyone wants to live in a democracy. Don't other countries have the right to self-determination?
Novorossiya is not a territory - it's a Republic. Imo, the Peoples Republic of Donetsk and the Peoples Republic of Lugansk both have the same right to self-determination that the Ukraine has. So if the Ukraine expects to have the right to self-determination then it must also give that right to those Republics.
The war against self-determination needs to end. It should have ended when the Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic was formed.
Imo, the will of the people is way more important than terretorial integrity. But that's just me.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

Why does it have to be a democracy? Not everyone wants to live in a democracy. Don't other countries have the right to self-determination?
Novorossiya is not a territory - it's a Republic. Imo, the Peoples Republic of Donetsk and the Peoples Republic of Lugansk both have the same right to self-determination that the Ukraine has. So if the Ukraine expects to have the right to self-determination then it must also give that right to those Republics.
The war against self-determination needs to end. It should have ended when the Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic was formed.
Imo, the will of the people is way more important than terretorial integrity. But that's just me.

You do realize though that the Democratic Party of the States doesn't define democracy? I even find it pretty funny, but I view the Republicans as way more democratic than the Democrats. =)) But maybe that's just me.

How far can self-determination go? Can a single person self-determine themselves and live in a separate country? What if some people within a self-determining group don't want the determination the rest want? Can every nationality of the several dozens that Russia has self-determine themselves and get split off of Russia? What are the limits?

Originally Posted by Eric C.

You do realize though that the Democratic Party of the States doesn't define democracy? I even find it pretty funny, but I view the Republicans as way more democratic than the Democrats. =)) But maybe that's just me.

Why do you view that?

How far can self-determination go? Can a single person self-determine themselves and live in a separate country? What if some people within a self-determining group don't want the determination the rest want? Can every nationality of the several dozens that Russia has self-determine themselves and get split off of Russia? What are the limits?

Doesn't developed American democracy have answers on these questions? Hasn't had it expirience like Kosovo?

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

Why does it have to be a democracy? Not everyone wants to live in a democracy. Don't other countries have the right to self-determination?
Novorossiya is not a territory - it's a Republic. Imo, the Peoples Republic of Donetsk and the Peoples Republic of Lugansk both have the same right to self-determination that the Ukraine has. So if the Ukraine expects to have the right to self-determination then it must also give that right to those Republics.
The war against self-determination needs to end. It should have ended when the Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic was formed.
Imo, the will of the people is way more important than terretorial integrity. But that's just me.

Sigh. Don't call it a democracy, then. Do you think the citizens are free there? I guess you didn't notice I put 'democracy' in quotes?

So, self-determination includes unilateral breaking away based on having guns pointed at your head? I know that a large percentage didn't want to join the 'new regime' in the rest of Ukraine (why do you use 'the Ukraine?). Many are pensioners, though. Many are indoctrinated via the old empire and system. But, I've talked to some people in that part (Donbass) and they are not big fans. Not everyone supports the system there so where does their 'determination' fit in?

I really don't care for either 'government/regime' especially if you consider 'Novorossiya' is governed by people with guns and that's their government in a nutshell. If the rest of Ukraine can organize and create some new parties (which they will need to if they want to end the status quo of oligarchs and politician collaboration), then they could change it. But, right now, I believe most are worried about jobs, the economy and what is next. But, I haven't read anything about Novorossiya that illustrates the ordinary citizen has 'freedom' unless they comply and abide by the desired system there.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

So, self-determination includes unilateral breaking away based on having guns pointed at your head? I know that a large percentage didn't want to join the 'new regime' in the rest of Ukraine (why do you use 'the Ukraine?). Many are pensioners, though. Many are indoctrinated via the old empire and system. But, I've talked to some people in that part (Donbass) and they are not big fans. Not everyone supports the system there so where does their 'determination' fit in?

Right now people there are just afraid. They are afraid to die: they are afraid to be killed, they are afraid to starve, they are afraid to freeze to death.
And since it's Kiev that shells them, cuts their pensions, cuts transportation with the rest of Ukraine, cuts electricity, destroys gas and water pipes everyday it is no wonder that people there think that Kiev is the enemy.
BTW Russia delivers 11th humanitarian aid convoy to Donbass, as we speak. So don't be surprised that people there don't see Russia as a monster, despite that Kiev tries to portray it like that.
At the same time some people understand that Novorossia has very little ground to survive right now, politically and economically, so they ask: what's next?

One thing is clear - everybody in Ukraine currently lives worse then before, when Yanukovich was the president. Is this the price people want to pay for the Maidan? I don't know, time will tell. But I think some people in Ukraine and in Ukrainian government got way carried away with wild ideas.