Quote Originally Posted by Eric C. View Post
You do realize though that the Democratic Party of the States doesn't define democracy? I even find it pretty funny, but I view the Republicans as way more democratic than the Democrats. =)) But maybe that's just me.

How far can self-determination go? Can a single person self-determine themselves and live in a separate country? What if some people within a self-determining group don't want the determination the rest want? Can every nationality of the several dozens that Russia has self-determine themselves and get split off of Russia? What are the limits?
Yeah. The first democracy was in Ancient Athens, Greece, and that was "majority rule". Btw, my parents are Republicans and they say the same thing - That Republicans are more democratic. But democracy changed up a lot in history and every "democracy" is different. For example, American democracy isn't the same as British democracy.

Anyway, I don't know that much about the limits of self-determination. But I do know that territorial integrity only exists where there's a government. So when a country fails (like Ukraine did) then that integrity is gone and the people have to decide their own futures. Since only the western Ukrainians accepted the new government in Kiev then the eastern Ukrainians had to create their own government.
The eastern Ukrainians were happy to have a small part of Ukraine to live in but western Ukraine got greedy and that led to war.

Quote Originally Posted by 14Russian View Post
Sigh. Don't call it a democracy, then. Do you think the citizens are free there? I guess you didn't notice I put 'democracy' in quotes?

So, self-determination includes unilateral breaking away based on having guns pointed at your head? I know that a large percentage didn't want to join the 'new regime' in the rest of Ukraine (why do you use 'the Ukraine?). Many are pensioners, though. Many are indoctrinated via the old empire and system. But, I've talked to some people in that part (Donbass) and they are not big fans. Not everyone supports the system there so where does their 'determination' fit in?

I really don't care for either 'government/regime' especially if you consider 'Novorossiya' is governed by people with guns and that's their government in a nutshell. If the rest of Ukraine can organize and create some new parties (which they will need to if they want to end the status quo of oligarchs and politician collaboration), then they could change it. But, right now, I believe most are worried about jobs, the economy and what is next. But, I haven't read anything about Novorossiya that illustrates the ordinary citizen has 'freedom' unless they comply and abide by the desired system there.
My bad. I didn't notice how you setup the word 'democracy'.
I don't know how free the people in Donbas are but I don't believe they were forced (by guns) to vote for independence in the referendums. I didn't see anybody pointing guns at anyone during the referendums.
Btw, have you ever heard the phrase "You can't please everybody"? In any democratic vote there will always be people that lose. That's normal and it doesn't change "majority rule".
Have you seen Kiev? They have guns too and they use them to protect the new government. Btw, the last woman that crashed through the barriers at the White House, in Washington DC, was shot and killed. And she wasn't even armed and there was a small kid in the car. And they knew that but they shot at the car anyway. Every government defends itself - even in the USA.
Woman slain after car chase from White House to Capitol

Well, I haven't read that any ordinary citizen, in western Ukraine, has "freedom" unless they comply and abide by the desired system there. But I have read about a lot of ethnic-Russians being tortured and killed in Kiev. And a Russia-friendly newspaper being destroyed. And Russia-friendly reporters being murdered. And a kid that was beaten up for wearing a St. George ribbon. And and and and...

All I see are governments that should be living side-by-side in peace but they aren't. Why? Because Kiev wants ALL of Ukraine and wants to keep killing till it gets what it wants.
I call that greed. And it's causing a ton of suffering that I'm very certain I can't even imagine... and wouldn't even want to.
My most epic problem is setting up my new Nintendo 3DS XL but what do they have? Only what the Russian convoys send them. God bless Russia for helping those people and working for peace in Minsk.
Btw, Merry Christmas.