Thread: Future of Eastern Ukraine? / Будущее Восточной Украины?

Originally Posted by Basil77

Я тоже этим интересовался. А предшествовало им то, что ещё неделю назад шли разговоры, что в Одессе готовится провокация. Однако, футбольный матч не отменили, а подвезли как можно больше ультрас. Кроме того, уже почти месяц в Одессу свозили правый сектор и нацгвардию, которые для сегодняшнего действа переоделись в цивильное. Превратили замечательный город в место для побоища, мрази. После сегодняшнего, места для переговоров не осталось, всё, черта пройдена.

А вот я читал что в Одессе шел мирный митинг за единую Украину под украинскими флагами, а потом толпа сепаратистов, вооруженных битами и травматическим оружием напала на них и начала избивать. В конце концов, убили одного парня выстрелом в голову. После этого сепаратисты штурмовали здание и забаррикадировались в нем. Ну а дальше вы знаете.

Ну так, чьим источникам верить? Где истина?

Originally Posted by Eric C.

А вот я читал что в Одессе шел мирный митинг за единую Украину под украинскими флагами, а потом толпа сепаратистов, вооруженных битами и травматическим оружием напала на них и начала избивать. В конце концов, убили одного парня выстрелом в голову. После этого сепаратисты штурмовали здание и забаррикадировались в нем. Ну а дальше вы знаете.

Ну так, чьим источникам верить? Где истина?

Верь Турчинову. Со своими новыми призывами он и тебя скоро "на мирную демонстрацию" отправит, не дай Бог.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

А вот я читал что в Одессе шел мирный иевсмитинг за единую Украину под украинскими флагами, а потом толпа сепаратистов, вооруженных битами и травматическим оружием напала на них и начала избивать. В конце концов, убили одного парня выстрелом в голову. После этого сепаратисты штурмовали здание и забаррикадировались в нем. Ну а дальше вы знаете.

Ну так, чьим источникам верить? Где истина?

Я ещё раз повторяю - я смотрел стрим, точнее несколько стримов одновременно, и со стороны ульрас, и со стороны ребят с георгиевскими ленточками. С самого начала событий смотрел и перестал, только когда начали выпрыгивающих из окон женщин насмерть дубинками забивать, нервов не хватило смотреть на такое. Мне достаточно того, что я видел. У меня пропало всякое желание спорить после этого. Осталось одно желание - спасти нормальных людей от этой жевто-блакитной мрази.

Originally Posted by DrBaldhead

Это конечно далеко не дубликат бесценного груза уже, но, хочется верить, что она не была против

Мы женаты 12 лет как, и она давно гражданка РФ. Украинский паспорт хранила как сувенир. Я сегодня от сего сувенира избавился. Не хочу после сегодняшнего, чтобы мои дети имели хоть что-то общее с бывшим государством под названием "Украина".

Originally Posted by it-ogo

П.С. Интересно, сколько среди разбившихся и задохнувшихся в Одессе окажется россиян и найдется ли там хоть один одессит?

What a horrible tragedy for Ukraine.

First of all, I don't know how they can be sure that these people are Russian. Did they have some documentation or something on them. Seems a bit odd to bring your passport as you go to commit illegal activities.

Secondly; I read that many among the killed where Russian passport holders from Pridnestrovie, a.k.a Transdniestr. No pont speculating though, until the victims are named.

And whether you would call that "Russians" or not, I don't know - I don't think most there are ethnic Russians - it's a "melting pot". The article that I read did not discuss what these alleged Russian/Pridnestrovians were doing in this union building in Odessa. It's 1-2 hours by car from there. Why would they want to go to Odessa to create havoc, what would be the motivation?
Perhaps they are hoping for Russian intervention all the way to Tiraspol(?)

(Photo is deleted. Too graphic. L.)

Originally Posted by Basil77

Мы женаты 12 лет как, и она давно гражданка РФ. Украинский паспорт хранила как сувенир. Я сегодня от сего сувенира избавился. Не хочу после сегодняшнего, чтобы мои дети имели хоть что-то общее с бывшим государством под названием "Украина".

Ok but she/you have family, don't you? Which part of the country do they live in? Does your wife's family's views concur with hers and yours?


Putin and Lavrov are so much sharper with foreign policy than the US etc.
No doubt they have a plan, but what is it? Have they already decided to let things disintegrate into utter chaos and let Ukraine become like some 3rd world country in Africa - never intervening no matter what? Perhaps it serves Russia in some perverse way..
Or are they just waiting for the right moment to step in? Or is there something else going on? Is this a powerplay against NATO?

What's happening in Ukraine now will go down as Political Science classic history in the future. It's very unique and happening in Europe to boot.

Originally Posted by Hanna

What does this supposed oppression and censorship in Russia matter to you 14Russian? You don't live there. Let the people who live there worry about it, and do something about it if it really bothers them. It's nobody else's business. First of all, the extent to which it happens can be debated. Secondly, it doesn't seem to massively bother the Russian population - if it really did, we'd here a lot of noise about it from Russia. I hear the odd Russian expat or token opposition figure mention it, nothing more. Thirdly, who are we to judge?

Try to express a politically incorrect opinion in Western Europe: 1) it won't be published unless you are famous 2) if you managed to get your point of view published, every other article will assasinate your character 3) if it's radical enough you'll land yourself on a security services watchlist - and the indications are that they can read whoever's correspondence or listen to phonecalls as they please.

• Russia has one party that rightly or wrongly keeps winning elections.
• We have several parties that are almost identical and any serious opposition or manifestations are cracked down on.

What's the big difference?

The pot calling the kettle black comes to mind. If you said that you lived in Russia had started a newspaper that was critical of the government and was harassed for it, I'd take you a bit more seriously.
But you don't live there and all you do is repeat propaganda. As you know, it annoys me that you come to a forum about Russia to carry out your anti-Russia agitation. Not that you can't hold whatever opinion you like, but it seems downright rude to do it here of all places. Not to mention spam/troll-like

Anyone English speaking that wants to hear these types of opinions can pick up the nearest newspaper or turn on CNN. I think most people use this forum for the inside story or background. Definitely not to hear the usual anti-Russia rhetoric switched up a notch by you.

(Deleted.L.) I already know about Western Europe, thanks, but the topic is Russia. If you want to think the assertions I've made are 'propaganda' I really don't care. (Deleted.L.)

Ужасно... Давайте, может быть, остановимся приносить сюда такие страшные плохие новости? Подождём какое-то время, должно же это закончиться.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

П.С. Интересно, сколько среди разбившихся и задохнувшихся в Одессе окажется россиян и найдется ли там хоть один одессит?

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Я думаю, лучше дождаться полного исследования всех двух сторон конфликта. Неясно чей флаг там напал первым... (и как правильно заметил it-ogo, сколько одесситов/украинцев среди каждой из сторон)

Мне как-то без разницы национальность погибших людей. Гибель любого человека есть трагедия. Ясно одно - люди были без оружия и в результате этого погибли. Тот, кто считает, что жизнь человека одной национальности или гражданства ценнее жизни человека другой национальности/гражданства, являет собой редкостную мразь.
Ясно стало одно - в Донбассе, где народ сумел вооружиться, не смотря на все боестолкновения и присутствие регулярных воинских частей, жертв меньше, чем в мирной Одессе. Я думаю, вывод как руководство к действию напрашивается сам собой.

Насчёт того, кто погиб в Одессе:

Большинство сожженых заживо боевиками "Правого сектора" в Одессе -это представители левых организаций - Компартии и "Боротьбы".
"Одесская Дружина" жива. Есть раненые, задержанные, перешедшие на нелегальное положение - но убитых вроде бы нет. Основной удар пришелся по левым - КПУ и "Боротьбе". Горели в Доме Профоюзов в основном они, сообщают пользователи соцсетей.
Тех, кто выжил в Доме Профсоюзов, сажают в СИЗО за терроризм и сепаратизм, сообщает пользователь Павел Жеребин
Байки про сожженных якобы российских агентах, что распространяются украинскими СМИ, опровергают одесские правоохранители и видеоматериалы - у погибших украинские документы.
После завершения тушения пожара в здании Одесской областной федерации профсоюзов обнаружено 36 тел погибших, сообщает пресс-служба ГУ ГСЧС Украины по Одесской области.
Всего после столкновений боевиков "Правого сектора" и антимайдановцев объявлено о 43 погибших сторонниках федерализации Украины и 174 пострадавших.

Так же хочу напомнить мой пост почти месячной давности:

Первый батальон Национальной гвардии поставил руководству ультиматум : Новости УНИАН

http://masterrussian.net/f16/%D1%87%...1/index5.html#

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Well, it might be that while the КGВ were figuring out how to put even more anti soviet protesters in jail, the CIA were experimenting on connecting mainframes to each other in a network, and checking on what that got them. Anyway, all the Internet these days might possibly have in common with those experiments from the past is the general idea of the possibility of transferring informational bits over wires, that's it. Calling the entire Internet as it is now a CIA project ( Deleted. L.)

1. Arresting protesters is not the only function of an intelligence community. If it was then OMOH could do their job and there would be no need for the ФСБ, ГРУ ГШ, or СВР in Russia now.
2. If that's the only interest the CIA has (or had) in the internet then I have to conclude that the CIA is ignorant, incompetent, or both. Also, the Snowden leaks revealed that there are NSA sock-puppet accounts online.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Who told you that was a "western staged coup" and specifically that it was an "U.S. installed government"? The Russian media? (Deleted. L.)

Forbes magazine, the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Guardian, and Business Insider. For example, this article appeared in Forbes magazine and the video speaks volumes.
I have a lot more links to mainstream US articles if you're interested.
Washington's Man Yatsenyuk Setting Ukraine Up For Ruin - Forbes

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Хотелось бы узнать что предшествовало этим событиям. Из того что я читал, не из рандомной ненависти было подожжено то здание...

I said that emotions should never be allowed to guide a debate but now I have to make an exception.
What preceded the event in Odessa is irrelevant. It was cowardly, dishonorable, and inhuman! Imo, the people that committed that heinous crime should be treated as animals, not humans.
The only excuse for that kind of behavior is not being human. Death before dishonor. The animals that slaughtered those people are worse than dead. And I would rather be shot and killed than to ever do what they did. At least I would still have my honor.

You claimed that pro-Russians attacked peaceful demonstrators with bats. That's called a street fight. There's a massive difference between fighting and slaughter.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

I said that emotions should never be allowed to guide a debate but now I have to make an exception.
What preceded the event in Odessa is irrelevant. It was cowardly, dishonorable, and inhuman! Imo, the people that committed that heinous crime should be treated as animals, not humans.
The only excuse for that kind of behavior is not being human. Death before dishonor. The animals that slaughtered those people are worse than dead. And I would rather be shot and killed than to ever do what they did. At least I would still have my honor.

You claimed that pro-Russians attacked peaceful demonstrators with bats. That's called a street fight. There's a massive difference between fighting and slaughter.

Absolutely agree. People inside the buliding didn't participate in street fights. They were mostly old ones (Communist party activists). There were many women among them. What a monster one should be to kill with bat injured unarmed old woman who just escaped from burning building? These animals should be eliminated like mad dogs - for better good of society.

This interview was taken in 1992. For smart people all what happens in Ukraine now was obvious even back then:

This referendum that is being planned will hardly be recognised by anyone, I should imagine. In this kind of climate, how can there be fair and credible referendums or election? Same reservations as in the Middle East.

I find it hard to believe that Russia won't intervene if it continues like this for much longer.

Originally Posted by Hanna

This referendum that is being planned will hardly be recognised by anyone, I should imagine. In this kind of climate, how can there be fair and credible referendums or election? Same reservations as in the Middle East.

I find it hard to believe that Russia won't intervene if it continues like this for much longer.

The goal of this whole campaign (i mean recent events in Odessa and South-East) - to drag Russian Federation into war. While world's mass-media blackens everything concerning Russia, it seems obvious that any detected russian force (even peacekeepers) on the territory of Ukraine would be called "Kremlin's butchers" and of course "warriors of light, defending the ideals of humanity" (NATO) would not hesitate to unleash its "holy wrath" on "agressive invaders". And again Europe will be on fire, while USA will trade, enrich, design new atrocities, orchestrating the conflict and dangling its lapdogs with new credits. That's the "Perfect war" by weakminded Western observers. The truth - if Russia intervenes it will be WW3.

Originally Posted by EfreytoR_S

The goal of this whole campaign (i mean recent events in Odessa and South-East) - to drag Russian Federation into war. While world's mass-media blackens everything concerning Russia, it seems obvious that any detected russian force (even peacekeepers) on the territory of Ukraine would be called "Kremlin's butchers" and of course "warriors of light, defending the ideals of humanity" (NATO) would not hesitate to unleash its "holy wrath" on "agressive invaders". And again Europe will be on fire, while USA will trade, enrich, design new atrocities, orchestrating the conflict and dangling its lapdogs with new credits. That's the "Perfect war" by weakminded Western observers. The truth - if Russia intervenes it will be WW3.

Yes I think you are right. But we must be really careful to remember that it's only a part of the population even in East and South Ukraine who want Russia there.

Just because they are against the government in Kiev doesn't mean they want Russian tanks on their street.

As for the anti-Russian propaganda. Well, Putin is ALREADY being called a "butcher", "like Hitler" and other similar insults. So how much worse could it get? Russia was dropped from G7 and there are economic sanctions. In reality, most of the countries in Europe can not manage without Russian energy and have become dependent on exports to the Russian markets. Serious sanctions will not happen even if it did, I doubt it would be effective.
In terms of bad will against Russia, that already happened. As far as Western media is concerned, Russia is joining ranks with Iran and North Korea on the "very evil" list.....
It's propaganda at its very best...

I see two possibilities if Russia actually gets involved:

1) It was planned all along, and Russia had figured out that things would go this way and was just waiting for total chaos to strike

2) more likely: Various groups are trying to force Russia's hand to make it intervene. Russia did not really want to intervene but is left with litle faith.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

В Одессе безобразие. Нужно будет как следует в этом разобраться.
П.С. Интересно, сколько среди разбившихся и задохнувшихся в Одессе окажется россиян и найдется ли там хоть один одессит?

Нет там одесситов. Только существа и колорады, не так ли, it-ogo?

http://thekievtimes.ua/society/36873...y-odessoj.html

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Нет там одесситов. Только существа и колорады, не так ли, it-ogo?

Не трогай его сейчас. У него бой в городе идёт.

Originally Posted by Basil77

Не трогай его сейчас. У него бой в городе идёт.

Не могу ему сочувствовать так как он тут с пафосом хватался за штурмовую винтовку, желая научить кого-то там уважать правила. Ненависть порождает ненависть, а не уважение к правилам.

Originally Posted by Basil77

Не трогай его сейчас. У него бой в городе идёт.

Не последний, видит Бог, не последний.