Thread: Crimea joining the Russian Federation and its implications?

Originally Posted by Amy6710

No kidding... driving me nuts!

I can't get over this madness whereby if you want a half way realistic news program about current events / international politics, you have to turn to RUSSIAN media. I know they don't openly criticise Putin at RT or Rossiya 24, but you can turn with confidence to any other international publication for that, so it's not a problem as far as I am concernèd. Or at least, there is a workaround..... Who, alive in 1985 would ever have seen this coming?

RT is better and more innovative and independent journalism than you can get in any British, European or American news channel these days. "Breaking the set" never even mentions Russia, but it would NEVER make it on any other channel.

I don't necessarily WANT to watch RT or Russia 24 and I am definitely no massive fan of Putin, but I can't bear being lied to by corporate media, or even worse, by the BBC or other European state TV, using our actual licence money to manipulate us. As long as RT remains the most truthful international news channel, I will watch it.

Until some native Western European media starts doing balanced reporting, and stops serving US and local corporate interests I guess I am stuck with Russian news channels. And media is getting worse, not better so it will be a while...

Does anyone know what's up with Rossiyskaya Gazeta? When I click the link all I get is something about the site being hacked into. I hope they get back online soon.

There were reports about massive DoS attacks at Russian news sites.

I bet some ignominiously disgraceful Ukrainian hackers are those responsible for these outrageous instances of misdemeanor. The worst is over however, and, hopefully, right now you can get uninhibited access to the site with the link: http://www.rg.ru

It might be, but I think there's still slim chances that won't happen and Crimea will become an independent republic.

Russian Finance Minister Anton Siluanov said Monday that the regional budget of the Crimean government was running a 35 billion ruble ($1 billion) deficit and that Russia would develop a plan of financial aid for the region by the evening.

Russia Revitalizes Project to Build Bridge to Crimea | World | RIA Novosti

Croc, how can they become independent with such a deficit?

Originally Posted by diogen_

Croc, how can they become independent with such a deficit?

Sorry for the late response, I just recently got back to the MR and I have a lot of reading to do to catch up with you guys..

To answer your question, I honestly have no idea as I am not a professional in Crimean budget and to be honest I have yet a lot to learn in the field of finance. All I said was that I personally noticed many Crimeans were unhappy to be part of Ukraine mainly because of their local interests being constantly ignored and/or diminished. So, my understanding of the situation is that a certain part of the Crimean 'political elite' tried to use the opportunity of the central power in Kiev being weaker than usual to wrestle a better autonomy, but the negotiations failed. Kiev believed they have 'the West and the entire world' on their side so they felt strong. Hence, the moves of the Crimean Parliament were declared illegal and Kiev had opened legal cases against Crimean MPs. So, the Parliament had the only choice left. Apparently, Russia made an offer the Crimean MPs couldn't refuse.

So, my forecast for Crimea to stay with Ukraine turned out to be wrong. I though Crimea would be used for negotiations with the EU/US, but it seems those guys were able to strike a different deal. Now, I hear Russia wants to have Alaska back or something like that.. Gosh.. Was that Maidan revolt worth it all? Why not to just wait for Yanukovich's term to expire in less than a year and elect a new leader?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Why not to just wait for Yanukovich's term to expire in less than a year and elect a new leader?

It was more than a year, not that it matters.

My opinion:
1. There was no chance whatsoever of even remotely fair elections.
2. Nevertheless, I don't think this Maidan happened intentionally. I think the opposition was preparing it exactly to the next elections -- "Maidan 2004 version 2". But it happened, and they had no choice but participate. Then Yanukovich signed something with Putin. From what I read about it, I got convinced (maybe not only me) -- the Ukraine became no more than a province of Russia. If the West got that impression too -- this could explain their determination.

Originally Posted by E-learner

From what I read about it, I got convinced (maybe not only me) -- now the Ukraine is no more than a province of Russia.

What you're saying makes sense.. So you're saying they got to the power last time through the revolution, so they did not want to waste the time [letting Yanukovich sign something they will not respect anyways] and started the revolution right away [for the fear the elections will not be fair]?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Sorry for the late response, I just recently got back to the MR and I have a lot of reading to do to catch up with you guys..

Haha you are very polite, just jump in.

I have been in a bit of a vacuum recently unfortunately due to having been in a car accident, so I also have alot of catching up to do!

It seems to me that most nations can point to a time in their history when they wronged others and there comes a time when people need to try and put that behind them rather than letting that rule every future decision.

Doesn't the result of the referendum speak for itself? Surely that is a democratic action and therefore uniting a democratic result.

I'm still confused why a country like the US, who has a rather brutal history itself and rarely democratically decide anything, have any right in speaking out against anything.

Originally Posted by Twonkybot

I'm still confused why a country like the US, who has a rather brutal history itself and rarely democratically decide anything, have any right in speaking out against anything.

Well my friend, you haven't watched enough BBC, or CNN, lately, obviously!
And you need to listen to what William Hague and Catherine Ashton have to say.
If the USA says it's right, then it's right, never mind precedence, history or common logic.
Pick up the Daily Telegraph, it will explain all......

Originally Posted by Twonkybot

I have been in a bit of a vacuum recently unfortunately due to having been in a car accident, so I also have alot of catching up to do!

It seems to me that most nations can point to a time in their history when they wronged others and there comes a time when people need to try and put that behind them rather than letting that rule every future decision.

Doesn't the result of the referendum speak for itself? Surely that is a democratic action and therefore uniting a democratic result.

I'm still confused why a country like the US, who has a rather brutal history itself and rarely democratically decide anything, have any right in speaking out against anything.

I hope the accident wasn't too serious.
Btw, I only added the history of Crimean Tatar raids into Russia as a possible explanation for the distrust that led to their exile.

This is interesting. The shots that killed both the pro-Russian and the Ukrainian soldier in Crimea yesterday were fired from the same location by a sniper. They also believe that the sniper's a member of the "Right Sector". *cough cough* the snipers on the Maidan *cough cough*.
Задержан один из симферопольских снайперов — Петр Лихоманов —

Originally Posted by Hanna

I can't get over this madness whereby if you want a half way realistic news program about current events / international politics, you have to turn to RUSSIAN media. I know they don't openly criticise Putin at RT or Rossiya 24, but you can turn with confidence to any other international publication for that, so it's not a problem as far as I am concernèd. Or at least, there is a workaround..... Who, alive in 1985 would ever have seen this coming?
RT is better and more innovative and independent journalism than you can get in any British, European or American news channel these days. "Breaking the set" never even mentions Russia, but it would NEVER make it on any other channel.
I don't necessarily WANT to watch RT or Russia 24 and I am definitely no massive fan of Putin, but I can't bear being lied to by corporate media, or even worse, by the BBC or other European state TV, using our actual licence money to manipulate us. As long as RT remains the most truthful international news channel, I will watch it.
Until some native Western European media starts doing balanced reporting, and stops serving US and local corporate interests I guess I am stuck with Russian news channels. And media is getting worse, not better so it will be a while...

RT, Российская газета, and Pravda always have more logical news feeds but I still like to read all sides of any issue. My Russian isn't good enough yet to listen to Russia 24 - even if I do recognize some of the spoken words and phrases - but I will include that too when my Russian improves.
For news on Ukraine, I've been using RT, Российская газета, Pravda, Christian Science Monitor, Washington post, New York Times, and Reuters mostly. Then I decide what makes sense and what doesn't. But it's very difficult to find any useful news or logic in the US news sources right now. Also, I get a lot of misinformation and bad feedback from my US friends but that's cool. I know what I know and that can't change. It would not hurt the US if Ukrainian opposition did or didn't win so I don't consider it that important here. Imo, it's only important to Russia and Ukraine. But I do respect the strong Russian-Ukrainian ties and Crimea's right to self-determination. I don't get how anyone can be American and not believe in self-determination.
Btw, I'm not a massive fan of Putin either. But if I was a Russian, I know I would vote for him. He's amazing!

Originally Posted by diogen_

There were reports about massive DoS attacks at Russian news sites.
I bet some ignominiously disgraceful Ukrainian hackers are those responsible for these outrageous instances of misdemeanor. The worst is over however, and, hopefully, right now you can get uninhibited access to the site with the link: http://www.rg.ru

Thanks! It's finally back online, yay!

Originally Posted by diogen_

Russia Revitalizes Project to Build Bridge to Crimea | World | RIA Novosti
Croc, how can they become independent with such a deficit?

Thanks for the heads up on the new bridge! I'll be watching for more news about that.

I declare the oncoming referendum in Crimea illegitimate, because it defies the international law!

If separating a region via a referendum defies the international law, we're reclaiming the former USSR borders.

Oh no, Baldy is using Obama pics.... hide, hide....

1) Seriously, who is responsible for the referendum wording and questions? Who decides how it's worded and what the questions are?

2) it was carefully crafted to make sure that there was no 'status quo' option. Yes, probably only the Tatars want that or the few Ukrainianian nationalists who are brainwashed, themselves (the opposite of the brainwash machine by the Kremlin) to reach out to the US and UN minions but still.... fair is fair.

Well, you lose again with the truth and most logical points presented... За твоё здоровье!

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Oh no, Baldy is using Obama pics.... hide, hide....

You didn't get the joke, did you?

Some of the references to "Ukrainian Nazis" in this thread are unfortunate, given the clear similarity between Russia's attempt to annex Crimea and Hitler's Anschluss with Austria. Professor Zubov described this recently in Vedomosti:

«Нам надо опомниться и остановиться. Наши политики втягивают наш народ в страшную, в ужасающую авантюру. Исторический опыт говорит, что ничего не обойдется так. Мы не должны вестись, как повелись в свое время немцы на посулы Геббельса и Гитлера. Ради мира в нашей стране, ради ее действительного возрождения, ради мира и настоящей дружественности на пространствах России исторической, разделенной ныне на многие государства, скажем «нет» этой безумной и, главное, совершенно ненужной агрессии»

Then, in a rather unpleasant confirmation of the threat he was describing, Zubov was sacked for expressing his opinion. This is just the latest in a series of incidents hacking away at free speech in Russia - think of the fate of Dozhd, think of the ludicrous internet ban for Navalny. How long will it be until Russia holds her own answer to Kristallnacht?

Russians - you are better than this. You deserve better.

Originally Posted by edvalais

Then, in a rather unpleasant confirmation of the threat he was describing, Zubov was sacked for expressing his opinion. This is just the latest in a series of incidents hacking away at free speech in Russia - think of the fate of Dozhd, think of the ludicrous internet ban for Navalny. How long will it be until Russia holds her own answer to Kristallnacht?

Russians - you are better than this. You deserve better.

Do you know why Kharkov's ex-governor Dobkin is put under home arrest? Why Kharkov's mayor Kernes is put under home arrest?

Originally Posted by edvalais

Professor Zubov.

After listening his almost a hour long speech on "Эхо Москвы" I desided for myself that he is Novodvorskaya level "liberast" and not worth listening to. Gosh, he claimed that Bandera and Ukrainian Guerilla Army (ОУН-УПА) was good guys, just patriotic. He directly said that all atrocities and murders of УПА was НКВД provocations. Even Poles who have zero reasons to like or white-wash НКВД never say such bullsh1t.

Originally Posted by Basil77

After listening his almost a hour long speech on "Эхо Москвы" I desided for myself that he is Novodvorskaya level "liberast" and not worth listening to. Gosh, he claimed that Bandera and Ukrainian Guerilla Army (ОУН-УПА) was good guys, just patriotic. He directly said that all atrocities and murders of УПА was НКВД provocations. Even Poles who have zero reasons to like or white-wash НКВД never say such bullsh1t.

Мне бабка рассказывала - дед был военнослужащим, их часть стояла в конце 40-х где-то под Самбором, кажется, а она - учительница младших классов - там в школе и для местных и для детей офицеров. Так вот однажды в деревянный столб возле школы, по которому любили съезжать дети, обхватив руками, повтыкали какие-то лезвия и несколько детей располосовало руки до кости. А на следующее утро появился батальон НКВД, всех собрали, и агитаторы разъяснили, что это вредительствуют бандеровцы. Потом пошли по хатам, и кого-то повязали и увезли. С тех пор она и боялась бандеровцев. Нелюди же - в собственном селе, собственных детей не пожалели!

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Мне бабка рассказывала - дед был военнослужащим, их часть стояла в конце 40-х где-то под Самбором, кажется, а она - учительница младших классов - там в школе и для местных и для детей офицеров. Так вот однажды в деревянный столб возле школы, по которому любили съезжать дети, обхватив руками, повтыкали какие-то лезвия и несколько детей располосовало руки до кости. А на следующее утро появился батальон НКВД, всех собрали, и агитаторы разъяснили, что это вредительствуют бандеровцы. Потом пошли по хатам, и кого-то повязали и увезли. С тех пор она и боялась бандеровцев. Нелюди же - в собственном селе, собственных детей не пожалели!

Я тоже слышал много всяких историй, например как бандеровцы в 52м захватили школу во Львове, связали учителей и стали с живых срезать куски мяса и заставлять детей есть. То, что происходило на подконтрольной Союзу территории можно при желании всё списать на провокации НКВД. Но как объяснить резню на Волыни и в Галиции в 43-44гг.? Какой там мог быть к чёрту НКВД? Вы там от своего УкрТВ что совсем с "з глузду з'їхали", как говорит бабушка моей жены?

З.Ы. Ладно, хватит про ужасы. Вот лучше весёлая картинка в тему:

Originally Posted by Basil77

Я тоже слышал много всяких историй, например как бандеровцы в 52м захватили школу во Львове, связали учителей и стали с живых срезать куски мяса и заставлять детей есть. То, что происходило на подконтрольной Союзу территории можно при желании всё списать на провокации НКВД. Но как объяснить резню на Волыни и в Галиции в 43-44гг.? Какой там мог быть к чёрту НКВД? Вы там от своего УкрТВ что совсем с "з глузду з'їхали", как говорит бабушка моей жены?

Ну я-то ТВ вообще никакое не смотрю - лет двадцать как. Разница между твоей и моей историей - что я свою получил из первых рук, и готовые выводы меня не устроили. И дети порезанные были вполне реальными - уж извини, но бабке своей я верю. Интересна твоя реакция - я тебе рассказываю историю без комментариев, а ты мне - "а у вас там негров линчуют". Я вроде как за резню на Волыни ничего и не говорил. Или ты меня с Новодворской перепутал? Собирательный образ врага?

Что я думаю, так это когда провокация становится технологией, поставленной на поток мощным централизованным государством с диктатором во главе и молчаливой поддержкой общества, таковое государство уделывает на раз-два любых любителей - и по количеству и качеству акций, и по уровню цинизма. Собственно, именно поэтому разобщенные украинские группы интересов никак не противники российской машине правды.

А что нужно Западу - мы уже увидели. Ему нафиг мы не нужны, и он изо всех сил пытается спасти лицо, почему Путина на место не поставил. И вот уже западные СМИ повторяют путинский бред об ущемлении интересов "этнических русских" и русскоязычных и типа фашистах в Киеве. Еще плюс один в пользу Пу.

Ну, что же, если Пу реально поплыл, теперь он аннексирует Крым, будет копить армию на дальнейшие завоевания и кончится все как с Гитлером. Если же еще относительно в себе - сделает из Крыма оффшор для финансовых махинаций, кормления генералов и неподотчетных вообще никому и ничему мероприятий, и будет продолжать тратить огромные ресурсы чтобы гадить нам в суп, чтобы не дай бог Украина не зажила по-нормальному, тогда его Русская Национальная Идея пойдет прахом невзирая ни на какие машины правды.