Thread: An alternative view of the USA & some other countries

Wow! I just took one day off and you guys have brought this discussion to new horizons! For now, I'll just leave a short comment:

Originally Posted by Hanna

..And if the USA goes ahead with the war that it seems really keen on against Iran, then Misha Tal from this forum could be killed and many others like him.

Honestly, I don't think it's a very real possibility. Don't laugh at my naivety. Much before things come down to any military stand-off like that, the Iranian regime will be struggling against it's own people. Only an ill-wisher of the United States might suggest an ambush against Iran. Such a war will have absolutely unpredictable impacts on the entire world. I think it's totally uncalled for, as long as Iranians themselves are against this regime. Attacking Iran will put the United States in the role of the aggressor, and will give the Iranian regime enough excuse for any devilish deed.

And there will be blood. Really. I rue to say this, but it will be a thousand times worse than Iraq.

I'm not a preacher. I'm not an unrealistic pacifist. I don't freak out at the idea of a war. But my crooked political philosophy goes like this: "If someone is screwing up, don't cut in his action. Just let him screw up all the way. If you go all-out against him, you'll make a goddamn martyr out of him. Remember JFK and you'll know what I mean."

I'm sure Obama's America is wise enough to be aware of all that. The most aggressive country in the world is not America. It's a 70-year-old mini-state located a few short steps to our west.

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

Only an ill-wisher of the United States might suggest an ambush against Iran. [...]
I'm sure Obama's America is wise enough to be aware of all that. The most aggressive country in the world is not America. It's a 70-year-old mini-state located a few short steps to our west.

Alright, so what if the mini-state would be paranoid enough and think the present threats from the Iranian government are real and strike first? (After all, they have their own experience of the 1968 war and 1973 war so they know how beneficial it might be to be preemptive.)

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Alright, so what if the mini-state would be paranoid enough and think the present threats from the Iranian government are real and strike first? (After all, they have their own experience of the 1968 war and 1973 war so they know how beneficial it might be to be preemptive.)

Then all the nonsense that Ahmadinejad has blabbered over the years would come true.

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

Then all the nonsense that Ahmadinejad has blabbered over the years would come true.

I'm not sure that is so simple. There's no border between Israel and Iran for the ground forces to fight, so Iran would be limited to employ its vast human resources. The war might look more like the Battle of Britain (Battle of Britain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) where the technology might mean more than the quantity of the fighter jets. So, do you think Iran might be ready to take it to the next level and use the chemical/biological weapons? Or WMDs?

Apparently, Israelis thought up of something brand-new.
Stuxnet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Ramil

Apparently, Israelis thought up of something brand-new.
Stuxnet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wow! Never heard of it before. So, is it going to be like another MOO ("An unknown virus has struck the research database destroying X points of research data and it might take years to recover?)

Originally Posted by Crocodile

...There's no border between Israel and Iran for the ground forces to fight...

Well, between us and them, you got a whole lot of Arabs. Their opinion of Israel is well-known [although, if they are Arab, you can't be sure they won't change their minds at the last moment]. Anyway, if it happens, the entire Middle East is bound to get engaged.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Wow! Never heard of it before. So, is it going to be like another MOO ("An unknown virus has struck the research database destroying X points of research data and it might take years to recover?)

It's too sophisticated to be just an ordinary virus. It is targeted at 'patterns' of specific instruction sets (though it's difficult to determine the target by reverse-engineering, specialists agree that it was specifically targeted at only some industrial equipment. It used two stolen (!) digital sertificates of known maufacturers (I heard of Realtek Semiconductors) to embed itself into the target machine and finally -- by the number of infected machines, many specialists concluded that target might be not the power plant, but the uranium enrichment facility.
(There are rumors that at least something had happenned there that disrupted the production).

It's a weapon grade, 2nd generation computer virus. It can even kill people. Here's some more:
Stuxnet: война 2.0 / Информационная безопасность / Хабрахабр
e_kaspersky - Торжественная речь по случаю...
Stuxnet сократил количество рабочих центрифуг в Иране

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

Then all the nonsense that Ahmadinejad has blabbered over the years would come true.

I absolutely agree with Misha here.

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

although, if they are Arab, you can't be sure they won't change their minds at the last moment

Wow! Have you started speaking disparagingly about the entire race??!!! Makes me wonder ...

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

Anyway, if it happens, the entire Middle East is bound to get engaged.

The previous history shows that might not necessarily be true. I mean, there are concerns, but in practice it had never really happened.


About the Stuxnet as a weapon, if that's true that kind of war seems much better to me than killing live people. Feel free to disagree (TM).

Originally Posted by Crocodile

About the Stuxnet as a weapon, if that's true that kind of war seems much better to me than killing live people. Feel free to disagree (TM).

But it can kill people. One can arrange some explosion or poisonous gas leak with it.

Originally Posted by Ramil

But it can kill people. One can arrange some explosion or poisonous gas leak with it.

You're right, it's probably possible. Ok, I was wrong. All wars suck.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Wow! Have you started speaking disparagingly about the entire race??!!! Makes me wonder ...

First, they're not a race. The Arab world is composed of different races. What makes them united is the Arabic language (and culture). Thirteen centuries ago, the only countries that accepted Islam but retained their language were Persia (Iran) and the Ottoman Empire (Turkey). Others adopted the Arabic language, which gradually resulted in a cultural change, but that doesn't change their race. So, my statement wasn't a racy one.

Second, yes, in a broader sense, my statement might seem to be disrespectful of their great culture. But it's got nothing to do with race. Iranians' dislike of Arabs is more of a cultural/historical matter. Throughout our history, Arabs have not proven to be the perfect people to team up with. So maybe we should learn a lesson or two from history? In my opinion, one of the most venomous aspects of my country's foreign policy is the strong reliance on Arabs.

And last, if all the above is not enough, I offer my apologies to any Arab who might be reading this. I stand in awe of their deep-rooted culture. And our historical clashes bring me nothing but sorrow.

Actually, some of my own countrymen in south-western provinces are of Arab descent. I have many friends among them, and have enjoyed their hospitality on several occasions. They're honest, courageous, and extremely patriotic.

@Crocodile: Only you could make me say all that! A racist is the last thing I could be, hand on my heart.

What I don't get is what people like Ahmadinejad actually want from the Israelis...?

That they pack up and leave (where??)
That they commit mass suicide...?
That they scrap their army and wait to be invaded and killed?
That they all convert to Islam (would they be left alone if they did?)

And who wrote that virus that attacked the Iranian nuclear plant? The US or Israel?

I have no issue at all with Iran having nukes - just as long as it's not specifically for a preemptive strike against Israel. For all its faults... I think Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state and I hope I don't annoy anyone here too much by saying that.

The other thing i don't quite get is: Why does Iran even care about Israel? Iranians are not Arabs, Israel is nowhere near Iranian territory and it has no interest in invading Iran. So why exactly is it such a big deal to Iran? I think the rhetoric from the Iranian leadership about Israel is very offputting.

And about invasion of Iran:

Anyone who is stupid enough to invade Afghanistan... and greedy enough to invade Iraq... (after having previously supported the exact regimes that they later turned against) .... would probably drool at the thought at "liberating" Iran (including its oil..) .
Unless the American people come to their senses and do something about their rotten politicians I think all the signs are there that thats exactly what they'd like to do after they are done in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

First, they're not a race. [..] So, my statement wasn't a racy one. [..] A racist is the last thing I could be, hand on my heart.

Wow! With that kind of words play you could do a fair politician. So, based on what you said, I can safely say something like French are this bad and that bad, and I won't be racist, because French is not a race. Ok, so if you insist on the strict meaning of that word, your statement wasn't racist, but chauvinistic. Would your really prefer a chauvinist over a racist? I don't really see much practical difference.

To tell the truth, Persians is a nation like any other nations with some of the Persians reliable and others are not. Also, when it comes to the foreign politics only rare nations perhaps could boast reliability in alliances.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

So, based on what you said, I can safely say something like French are this bad and that bad, and I won't be racist, because French is not a race.

This argument, despite being impressive and eloquent, is not "based on what I said". What I said was not "Arabs are this bad and that bad". My point was very specific: the history of our political relationships. Generalizing this to a racist manifest must have taken a fair amount of creativity.

Accusing people of racism is easy. I understand that it can be great fun. Yet I have always stayed away from this kind of pleasure.

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

1. What I said was not "Arabs are this bad and that bad". My point was very specific: the history of our political relationships.
2. although, if they are Arab, you can't be sure they won't change their minds at the last moment
3. Generalizing this to a racist manifest must have taken a fair amount of creativity.

Ok, so the ZOG theory (Zionist Occupation Government - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) is not a racist manifest at all. Just an insight into a certain political aspect.

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

[...] you got a whole lot of Arabs. Their opinion of Israel is well-known [although, if they are Arab, you can't be sure they won't change their minds at the last moment].

Ok, let's set aside our previous discussion which was more or less for lulz, and let me ask you a serious question. Based on Iran's history of its political relationships, of course.

If Arabs hate Israel and Arabs aren't to be trusted (as you insist based on their culture, history, or what not) then Israel is doing a right thing when it doesn't believe Arabs want the peace and does a wrong thing when it believes so. Would you agree with that?

Trollodile is to be encouraged to work off some excess weight.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Trollodile is to be encouraged to work off some excess weight.

It could work well when I try to jump on board.