Thread: An alternative view of the USA & some other countries

Originally Posted by Basil77

Ok, Scott, I can understand you perfectly well, he was a guy whos leadership made your country a Cold War winner blah, blah. More important for Americans, I think, he was a leader who greatly improved the level of life-quality in America. But have you ever think by what cost? The foundation of policy of blowing American financial bubble was founded by Reagan's goverment. Have you ever thought about how much money an average American family owes to China goverment? And how much your grandchildren will owe if United States will continue current policy?

I disagree with your financial bubble comment - please look into FDR and Woodrow Wilson presidencies. I do agree that the USA financial policy is a disaster. It is not just Obama and democrats. It is Bush and republicans also. See the election coming up in November for what direction America thinks we should be going in.

I think it's ironic that Ronald Reagan is being discussed in a "Liberties of the Russian people" thread. I know there were many factors in the collapse of communism but isn't Ronald Reagan one of them? We'll never know but if Carter won again and then followed by other "weak" presidents like Obama - would you be able to freely have a discussion on the liberties of the Russian people?



Scott

Originally Posted by fortheether

He beat Jimmy Carter in the election.

Admit it, you can't name anything! of course he beat his opponent.... But what did he do during the course of his presidency?
Basil77 and Misha Tal are right - And certainly, most people in Europe (apart from England) think he was terrible, like Bush,

And you Americans are not quite as "free" as you may think you are! You only believe it because you are constantly told it.
Some of the stuff about the greatness of the USA is laughable - nothing unique about it: every country in Europe has it too.

You are free in the USA if you are able to make a decent amount of money so you can afford to pay for everything that is free in Europe...
and assuming your politics are capitalist/christian.... and reasonably PC...

Did you know that Germany is now putting in place many of the EXACT same policies that East Germany had under socialism?
People want that security and level of organisation and they realise now what they were a bit fast to bin a system that had many good (along with the bad...) qualities.

And don't worry about your grand kids Scott... Although they will be broke, maybe China, Russia and some future moslem super power can give them some aid....

That's if the USA doesn't have some "Plan B" for world domination to try when everything else has failed.
For example: "Pay us, or one of those nukes we keep on our base(s) in your country might accidentally go off... "

Sorry if I sound a bit harsh, but I really don't see the USA as the Force of Good that you believe it to be...
I just want to make you see an alternative view.

Originally Posted by fortheether

I think it's ironic that Ronald Reagan is being discussed in a "Liberties of the Russian people" thread. I know there were many factors in the collapse of communism but isn't Ronald Reagan one of them? We'll never know but if Carter won again and then followed by other "weak" presidents like Obama - would you be able to freely have a discussion on the liberties of the Russian people?

Main reasons for USSR collapse were internal. At the end of USSR people didn't really believe in soviet ideals, propaganda etc. Everybody became cynic. But yes, maybe external factors played some role. Namely, maybe aggressiveness and insane rhetorics of Reagan prolonged USSR a bit more. He gave many good confirmations to communist propaganda. We'll never know...

Originally Posted by fortheether

We'll never know but if Carter won again and then followed by other "weak" presidents like Obama - would you be able to freely have a discussion on the liberties of the Russian people?

Well, Misha Tal seems to enjoy the 'free' talk, so why not?

I'm not sure the reasons for the 'fall of the communism' are quite obvious. Like, look at North Korea. All the so-called 'reasons for the fall' are still there (and perhaps there are even more), but the present regime seems to be rather stable. Some people think at the August of 1991 the SU was very close to abandon the Perestroyka and going back to the roots (=the strong dictatorship).

Having said that, I remember the early '80s and all I can tell is that the SU seemed to be preparing for a big war. It was apparent the SU couldn't match the SDI and the preemptive strike was required to save the regime. Gorbachev allowed a lot of ugly things to happen, but he didn't allow the big war to start.

Sooooo, about SDI, do you really think it was a real threat? Observing US's struggling with ABM now (which is a mush humbler project than SDI was), watching its doubtful effectiveness, I doubt US was capable of SDI in the early 1980s.
Some say that SDI was a bluff in order to hurl USSR into more expenses it could afford, well, if it was it was a very successful one, I'd say the Soviet leaders believed it. Still, I don't see how KGB missed this fact and generally I cannot imagine a bluff of that magnitude and I find it hard to believe.

I think USSR was destroyed from within, not from outside. By its own people, not by some clever US president.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Admit it, you can't name anything! of course he beat his opponent.... But what did he do during the course of his presidency?
Basil77 and Misha Tal are right - And certainly, most people in Europe (apart from England) think he was terrible, like Bush,

And you Americans are not quite as "free" as you may think you are! You only believe it because you are constantly told it.
Some of the stuff about the greatness of the USA is laughable - nothing unique about it: every country in Europe has it too.

You are free in the USA if you are able to make a decent amount of money so you can afford to pay for everything that is free in Europe...
and assuming your politics are capitalist/christian.... and reasonably PC...

Did you know that Germany is now putting in place many of the EXACT same policies that East Germany had under socialism?
People want that security and level of organisation and they realise now what they were a bit fast to bin a system that had many good (along with the bad...) qualities.

And don't worry about your grand kids Scott... Although they will be broke, maybe China, Russia and some future moslem super power can give them some aid....

That's if the USA doesn't have some "Plan B" for world domination to try when everything else has failed.
For example: "Pay us, or one of those nukes we keep on our base(s) in your country might accidentally go off... "

Sorry if I sound a bit harsh, but I really don't see the USA as the Force of Good that you believe it to be...
I just want to make you see an alternative view.

I'm going to make a new thread called "An alternative view of the USA" to continue this. See you all there...

Originally Posted by Ramil

Sooooo, about SDI, do you really think it was a real threat? [...] I doubt US was capable of SDI in the early 1980s.

Honestly, I have no idea. But if you remember the early '80s you'd remember "the Pershing II and the SDI threat" talk was looking for you even if you'd opened your fridge.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Some say that SDI was a bluff in order to hurl USSR into more expenses it could afford, well, if it was it was a very successful one, I'd say the Soviet leaders believed it.

I think so too. At least, that's how it looked from the outside.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Still, I don't see how KGB missed this fact and generally I cannot imagine a bluff of that magnitude and I find it hard to believe.

I think that question was more of the GRU's competence than of the KGB's, but that doesn't make much difference. I mean, the Cold War era intelligence games are a way too complex for a simple-minded crocodile like myself. There's never an end to it. For example, perhaps the SU preparation for the preemptive war was also a disinformation campaign so that the US would spend more money on the SDI (while the Soviet Leaders spent much less on the 'preemptive war preparation' than the US Government on the 'SDI implementation') and the US government realized that fact ('I know that you know that I know') and spent more money in order to really impress the Soviet Leaders more and the SU made the 'preemptive war' looking more realistic, and so the game of who's fooling whom goes on and on.

Originally Posted by Ramil

I think USSR was destroyed from within, not from outside. By its own people, not by some clever US president.

Yes and no. I think the clever US president might have significantly contributed to a situation in which it was beneficial for some people to get more independence (=more local power) and sacrifice the power of the USSR. The 'own people' rode a wave (which was partially created by the US president) to their own benefit.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Main reasons for USSR collapse were internal. At the end of USSR people didn't really believe in soviet ideals, propaganda etc. Everybody became cynic. But yes, maybe external factors played some role. Namely, maybe aggressiveness and insane rhetorics of Reagan prolonged USSR a bit more. He gave many good confirmations to communist propaganda. We'll never know...

Can you please elaborate on the statement:

He gave many good confirmations to communist propaganda.

What did the propaganda say?

Thank you,

Scott

Originally Posted by fortheether

I'm going to make a new thread called "An alternative view of the USA" to continue this. See you all there...

О, хорошо! Тогда я туда перенесу все подходящие посты.

Originally Posted by fortheether

Can you please elaborate on the statement:

He gave many good confirmations to communist propaganda.

What did the propaganda say?

Thank you,

Scott

They said: "USA is our enemy. They hate us just because we are different, just because we are Russians. They want to destroy our country, split it into pieces. They call our country "Evil empire". All we want is to live in peace but they do not agree. They have military bases and nukes all around the USSR while USSR has no nukes near the USA. We propose mutual disarmament but they build SDI to be completely safe when they will bomb our cities. We have to unite against them to save our country and our lives. Just read what their president say and you will see. He hates us."

Funny that at the time of late USSR all of it was true. Sometimes even propaganda may be true.

Well - one mans propaganda is another mans truth!

Where I lived, we heard both sides of this story, presented in a relatively unbiased way.

But I agree with it-ogo: Media from the socialist countries were always on about "friendship", "solidarity", "brotherhood" and Peace etc, etc..

Whereas the US films were always picturing Russians as bad people.
And then now - Russians always have extreme roles in films: Gangsters of some kind or another, for example.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Honestly, I have no idea. But if you remember the early '80s you'd remember "the Pershing II and the SDI threat" talk was looking for you even if you'd opened your fridge.

Yes, I even remember being very afraid after watching Международная панорама. I understood very little, only that the Americans want us all dead and they're building many bombs. Funny thing, I'd learned about Reagan's Star Wars first and of Lucas's much later.

I think that question was more of the GRU's competence than of the KGB's, but that doesn't make much difference. I mean, the Cold War era intelligence games are a way too complex for a simple-minded crocodile like myself. There's never an end to it. For example, perhaps the SU preparation for the preemptive war was also a disinformation campaign so that the US would spend more money on the SDI (while the Soviet Leaders spent much less on the 'preemptive war preparation' than the US Government on the 'SDI implementation') and the US government realized that fact ('I know that you know that I know') and spent more money in order to really impress the Soviet Leaders more and the SU made the 'preemptive war' looking more realistic, and so the game of who's fooling whom goes on and on.

The spy game was very complicated but it's not like guess what the other side is thinking. You can't really hide the fact that you're building something of such a grand scale as SDI. There could be tons of evidense even to the stupidest spy.

Yes and no. I think the clever US president might have significantly contributed to a situation in which it was beneficial for some people to get more independence (=more local power) and sacrifice the power of the USSR. The 'own people' rode a wave (which was partially created by the US president) to their own benefit.

I really don't think that Brezhnev in 1980 could think coherently about US threat. Because of his illness I don't think he cared much just about anything. He was old and ill and there were many around him who were simply filling their pockets. It's the stagnation, the lack of progress which undermined the socialist ideas. The generation of 1960s grew up in tranquil times when virtually nothing major was happenning. There were no shocks, no goal, no focus. They yawned through this time and got pretty bored with anything 'made in USSR'. The west offered much more attractive things to the young and the most idiotic thing the leaders could do was forbidding all new and fresh ideas (old farts in Politbureau saw to that). They should have given way to the young. I honestly think that if Brezhnev had resigned or died in the mid-seventies things would be much better now. Then again, who knows...

Originally Posted by Ramil

I really don't think that Brezhnev in 1980 could think coherently about US threat. Because of his illness I don't think he cared much just about anything. He was old and ill [...] I honestly think that if Brezhnev had resigned or died in the mid-seventies things would be much better now.

No, no, and no!

First, everything we used to find attractive about the SU (stability, etc.) should be attributed to the stagnation time of Brezhnev. The life before him and after him used to be rather challenging to the ordinary people.

Second, the whole 'preemptive war preparation' started at 1983 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strateg...nse_Initiative) after Brezhnev died (at 1982) and should be attributed to Andropov who was the Secretary General of the CPSU 1982—1984 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Andropov). (Just a reminder that Andropov was previously a Chief of the KGB.) Some people said Andropov died at 1984 (in the Central Governmental Hospital in Moscow from the sudden kidney failure) because he was very successful in the preparation.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

They said: "USA is our enemy. They hate us just because we are different, just because we are Russians. They want to destroy our country, split it into pieces. They call our country "Evil empire". All we want is to live in peace but they do not agree. They have military bases and nukes all around the USSR while USSR has no nukes near the USA. We propose mutual disarmament but they build SDI to be completely safe when they will bomb our cities. We have to unite against them to save our country and our lives. Just read what their president say and you will see. He hates us."

No, not like that. It would be too simple. They said that the capitalists who oppressed the worker class in many countries were afraid of the 'inevitable' triumph of the communism in the whole world. In order not to lose their wealth and power they strove to destroy the socialist countries. These were the reasons.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

No, no, and no!

First, everything we used to find attractive about the SU (stability, etc.) should be attributed to the stagnation time of Brezhnev. The life before him and after him used to be rather challenging to the ordinary people.

Second, the whole 'preemptive war preparation' started at 1983 (Strategic Defense Initiative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) after Brezhnev died (at 1982) and should be attributed to Andropov who was the Secretary General of the CPSU 1982—1984 (Yuri Andropov - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). (Just a reminder that Andropov was previously a Chief of the KGB.) Some people said Andropov died at 1984 (in the Central Governmental Hospital in Moscow from the sudden kidney failure) because he was very successful in the preparation.

Perhaps, but nonetheless:

I honestly think that if Brezhnev had resigned or died in the mid-seventies things would be much better now.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

They said: "USA is our enemy. They hate us just because we are different, just because we are Russians. They want to destroy our country, split it into pieces. They call our country "Evil empire". All we want is to live in peace but they do not agree. They have military bases and nukes all around the USSR while USSR has no nukes near the USA. We propose mutual disarmament but they build SDI to be completely safe when they will bomb our cities. We have to unite against them to save our country and our lives. Just read what their president say and you will see. He hates us."

Funny that at the time of late USSR all of it was true. Sometimes even propaganda may be true.

So the Soviet submarines with nuclear weapons in the Atlantic and Pacific oceans was propaganda? Until a minute ago I thought Nikita Khrushchev said when referring to the USA "We will bury you", but I looked it up:

We will bury you - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

which says he didn't say it. Most Americans think he said it.

Scott

Originally Posted by Ramil

Perhaps, but nonetheless.

Oh, I like whenever the "perhaps, but nonetheless" starts. That's the most fun part of the conversation.

Originally Posted by fortheether

So the Soviet submarines with nuclear weapons in the Atlantic and Pacific oceans was propaganda? Until a minute ago I thought Nikita Khrushchev said when referring to the USA "We will bury you", but I looked it up:

We will bury you - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

which says he didn't say it. Most Americans think he said it.

Scott

It was said that the subs were sent there to balance the missiles deployed in Turkey )))

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Oh, I like whenever the "perhaps, but nonetheless" starts. That's the most fun part of the conversation.

Oh, I don't want to convince anyone with anything. I just told what I think, that's all. Besides, I'm not in the position to judge because I don't know how life had been in USSR before Brezhnev or even in his early years as a leader. In 1982 I was only 6 years old and my understanding of the situation was a bit limited.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Admit it, you can't name anything! of course he beat his opponent.... But what did he do during the course of his presidency?
Basil77 and Misha Tal are right - And certainly, most people in Europe (apart from England) think he was terrible, like Bush,

And you Americans are not quite as "free" as you may think you are! You only believe it because you are constantly told it.
Some of the stuff about the greatness of the USA is laughable - nothing unique about it: every country in Europe has it too.

You are free in the USA if you are able to make a decent amount of money so you can afford to pay for everything that is free in Europe...
and assuming your politics are capitalist/christian.... and reasonably PC...

Did you know that Germany is now putting in place many of the EXACT same policies that East Germany had under socialism?
People want that security and level of organisation and they realise now what they were a bit fast to bin a system that had many good (along with the bad...) qualities.

And don't worry about your grand kids Scott... Although they will be broke, maybe China, Russia and some future moslem super power can give them some aid....

That's if the USA doesn't have some "Plan B" for world domination to try when everything else has failed.
For example: "Pay us, or one of those nukes we keep on our base(s) in your country might accidentally go off... "

Sorry if I sound a bit harsh, but I really don't see the USA as the Force of Good that you believe it to be...
I just want to make you see an alternative view.

Hanna - my work has been too busy for me to reply to above - I am looking forward to when I can reply though.

Scott