Thread: An alternative view of the USA & some other countries

Originally Posted by Hanna

Hmmm ok! Well if everyone is a bit brainwashed then I guess I am a bit too.

Hmm.. a nice hopping from "no, I'm not brainwashed" through the "challenge" to "ok, I'm brainwashed". Could you spell it out for me?

Originally Posted by Hanna

And you are right that I really can't stand those bases in Europe. There are some very good personal/national reasons for that [...]

Would you be able, at least, to provide a hint? I mean, I can provide a typical personal reason why the military bases are good. They very noticeably contribute to the local economy. The term "national reason" sounds like a pure result of brainwashing. Do you have any idea what the national reasons might be? Those are, in fact, a biased interpretation of some decisions by a group of politicians fighting with another group of politicians over the influence. As an intelligent person, you might realize there are pros and cons to just about anything done on the political arena. The decisions are made based on many [sometimes contradicting] factors. Subsequently, the decisions are presented in various ways with various interpretation. Please-please-please, when you reason with people, try to avoid the term "national reasons/interests/etc." as that would be an insult to their intelligence.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Norway is my neighbour/brother country - very fond of it. They should not be spied on by anyone!)

Why not? If they have nothing to hide except for me and my monkey?

Well personally I don't hate America for being prosperous, and I am not jealous about their prosperity (actually I personally am as well off, or better, as the average American anyway). I have nothing against them having a nice lifestyle their and doing whatever they like within the borders of their own country.

There are a few things about America that I admire and would like to see more of in Europe, but I am not jealous about it, per se.

I can see that people in less prosperous part of the world might feel pure jelaousy towards material prosperity in America though, and I think many in the the Moslem world are disgusted by what they percieve as a very promiscuous and excessive lifestyles in America; spurred on by media. They feel threatened that these values are imposed from the outside, on their own countries.

My own issue is simply with the USAs military presences outside of its' own borders... and with some aspects of its' foreign policy, such as serious meddliing in the affairs of other countries, imposing all encompassing economical sanctions on countries they don't like, etc.

(I just read in the paper today that the USA had set up an office in Oslo to spy on Norwegian citizens, without bothering to inform the state there. It was just discovered and Norwegians are pretty upset. If it goes on there, then its safe to say it goes on in every single European country. Norway is my neighbour/brother country - very fond of it. They should not be spied on by anyone!)

Let's bring back those Russian spies to the USA then. Maybe they can live next to you and use your PC and wireless connection, and pass back the latest news on your movements to spying headquarters in Moscow! You haven't got anything to hide, do you?

It's impossible to argue with you about this Croc, because you essentially see the US and it's military as a power of goodness to be embraced by all the world, while I don't! It's great that you like your new home country, and you are sure going all the way with the US patriotism. Good for you, but like I said, I don't like it.

Just in case there is any confusion: I don't want any Russian, Chinese or other spies, bases etc in my backyard either!
However, by far the biggest culprits on this front is the USA. Russia packed up its bases from Europe in the early 90s and the USA should have done the same. We don't need them and France and UK have nukes enough to defend Europe.

I'll explain the national reasons some other time, it's a bit complex and long winded and I doubt anyone else is interested. But it sure p-d me off to learn about it.

Originally Posted by Hanna

It's impossible to argue with you about this Croc, because you essentially see the US and it's military as a power of goodness to be embraced by all the world, while I don't! It's great that you like your new home country [...]

Ah? When have I ever said the US is a power of goodness? That's another sign you've been brainwashed: you think whoever disagrees with the propaganda you believe in would surely believe in the other side propaganda. Also, my new home is not the US, so unfortunately you've been mistaken in that as well.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Let's bring back those Russian spies to the USA then. Maybe they can live next to you and use your PC and wireless connection, and pass back the latest news on your movements to spying headquarters in Moscow! You haven't got anything to hide, do you?

No, I haven't. In fact, I don't need to wait for the spies to use my PC as they have much more powerful PC and I would really like to use theirs. Also, almost everything you do in the Internet would be kept in logs and almost any [seemingly secured] data transfer could be recorded and decoded. The real spies use different types of connection. Also, it's well-known that most of the information could be dug up from the legitimate sources, no need for conspiracy. The latter is used for the disinformation of their own governments to justify the maintenance of the headquarters. Most of the operational costs are covered by the fully legitimate sources, so no connection with the spying state could be detected. I'm pretty sure the loss of the so-called 'Russian spies' that you mentioned had not disrupted to the least the information flow and the analysis.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I'll explain the national reasons some other time, it's a bit complex and long winded and I doubt anyone else is interested.

Well, Lampada hadn't banned both of us so far, so I can say with some degree of confidence she would not ban you for explaining the national interests either. Also, if the explanation is so complex as you said, you can open a new thread about the national interests and whoever is bored with that topic would just skip it. You challenged me, remember? So, now it's your turn not to evade the answer.

Ok I'll answer your question about that other stuff later. (don't have time today).

As for the rest: I don't like to argue for the sake of it. I have already explained my view and nothing so far has convinced me to change my mind.

I am personally convinced that the Europe would be a better place if the USA withdraw its bases from it, and that the world would be a better place if the US stopped starting wars and getting involved in conflicts far from its own territory.

I have no extremist views and I don't wish America bad in any way.
But I think that if Americans thought about it objectively they'd probably prefer their tax money to be spent on something better than supporting the war industry, creating mayhem abroad and making them inpopular in large parts of the world.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I have already explained my view and nothing so far has convinced me to change my mind.

Yeah... as they say: don't underestimate the power of the brainwashing... People pick up their opinions easily and arbitrarily, but are very reluctant to re-evaluate them. QED.

Yeah but this is a fruitless discussion. We're just going round in circles.
Face-to-face over a nice dinner I'd enjoy this discussion though! Maybe sometime!!!

Crocodinner to be expected.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Crocodinner to be expected.

Please read the following link before being so sure: Наш ответ Чемберлену - Blogs - MasterRussian.NET

I usually dont agree with Hanna. But in this case i agree. I dont understand why we(the US) need 30k troops in S Korea. The South Koreans are rich enough and can take care of themselves now. I could not believe the base i was stationed at as a child (in Germany) was just shut down 2 years ago. Seems to me its like 15 years and probably 75 million $'s too late. The only reason for the base i was stationed at to exist was to blunt a USSR attack. Seems pointless when there is no USSR. For that matter i dont understand why we are still in NATO. We usually end up doing 70% of the dying on NATO outtings. Sound like a bad deal for the US. Outside of Afgahnistan i dont see any pressing reason for having bases anywhere other then in the US.

It's not that I approve or disapprove of the US bases. It's just been many times already that Hanna threw the "brainwashed" label in the face of the others (or the other nations altogether). I think I was able to show that Hanna is not less brainwashed than a typical person. And when two brainwashed people start 'discussing' their 'point of view' then - yes - it's fruitless as they can't even justify their point logically let alone change their mind. I think having such conversations over dinner would just ruin the dinner. That's why I guess it's not allowed to mention politics "in the best homes of Paris".

Well, I argue about it because I care about it!
Part of the reason I mention it is because I hope that someone who sees it (particularly an American) would think: "Why is my country doing this?"

But if you, Crocodile don't care either way, then why get involved in the discussion!?

If I am brainwashed because I want countries to look after themselves, not invade other countries and not meddle in the affairs of other countries and because I don't want multinational corporations to run the world.... then I am proud to be brainwashed!

Originally Posted by Hanna

If I am brainwashed because I want countries to look after themselves, not invade other countries and not meddle in the affairs of other countries and because I don't want multinational corporations to run the world.... then I am proud to be brainwashed!

Nuff said.

Originally Posted by Hanna

...But if you, Crocodile don't care either way, then why get involved in the discussion!? ...

Let me! Because he can. And I'd say that there is no chance that he wouldn't care.

Well, if a person has opinions that doesn't automatically mean he or she is brainwashed. As it-ogo pointed out earlier, the difference lies in the fact that a person with opinions still have the ability for critical thinking while a brainwashed person doesn't. Ideas or ideology are nice until the moment you stop being openminded. It's when you put your brains to stone about something there is nothing to talk about. As far as I know there is no such thing as 'good ideology'. The world changes every minute and so must the assorted ideas. The idea that doesn't change is trash.

Sorry I got a bit carried away on this thread! I really have to stop my ranting in this forum! Will start that blog I keep talking about...
Gosh, I need to remember that I come here to learn Russian, not to rant about political matters beyond my control....

Originally Posted by Hanna

Sorry I got a bit carried away on this thread! I really have to stop my ranting in this forum! Will start that blog I keep talking about...
Gosh, I need to remember that I come here to learn Russian, not to rant about political matters beyond my control....

Hanna, please don't worry about it. It fine to get carried away here and there. We all do.

Well, political ranting (in France it is called "discours", in Russia - "срач") can be very useful for your learning if performed in Russian. In addition it is a good way to enjoy just "because one can".

Yes, Hanna, you should try ranting in Russian. )))

Originally Posted by Ramil

Yes, Hanna, you should try ranting in Russian. )))

Watch this space or stay tuned, as the Americans would say!!

Thanks for the encouragement! I am practicing every day, and getting better but we'd have to rename the lounge to "Comedy" if I tried ranting in Russian....

Russian is easily three times harder than any other language I studied - because of the grammar. So it's taking me longer to make progress than I had ever imagined.