Thread: An alternative view of the USA & some other countries

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Oh, man! Looks like Soviet brainwashing was baby talk in comparison to American one.

The Soviet brainwashing was a bit more skillful that's all. The truth is multi-faced, so all of us are brainwashed more or less.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

The Soviet brainwashing was a bit more skillful that's all.

Skillful? Oh, no! It was too primitive and straightforward and was really effective only along with extensive terror, which was over at 1953.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

The truth is multi-faced, so all of us are brainwashed more or less.

The brainwashing is a technology to make a person to be completely unable to perform the critical analysis of certain ideas or statements or just words and words combinations.

When a brainwashed person hears something that is presumably questions an idea-focus, (s)he suffers an uncontrollable negative emotional reaction that makes a person temporarily unable to perform intellectual activity.

This is just disgusting and has nothing to do with faces of truth.

I believe that everything is possible without brainwashing effects. Even faith. Brainwashing phenomenon is an evil, which can be avoided completely.

Why avoid it while it's so great a tool? As soon as everyone seems to understand that every ruler in the world is an unscrupulous, disgusting moral bankrupt, what would you expect from them? Justice? Honor? Dedication? Don't be absurd.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Skillful? Oh, no! It was too primitive and straightforward and was really effective only along with extensive terror, which was over at 1953.

I'm not so sure about that. I mean, I don't think our grandparents were all stupid and cowards. I think the opposite would better reflect the reality. People were idealistic, progressive, strove to overthrow worn and torn stigmas etc. I think the communistic ideology is smart and cunning, not the primitive and straightforward.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

When a brainwashed person hears something

like the word "USA"

Originally Posted by it-ogo

(s)he suffers an uncontrollable negative emotional reaction

exactly. Even if you watch the reaction of Hanna some of the forum members here, you'd notice that. And that being said of the [relatively] open and intellectual members. Now, can you notice what kind of reaction the word "exploitation" causes in our Soviet minds?

Originally Posted by it-ogo

This is just disgusting and has nothing to do with faces of truth.

Not really. Do you strongly associate "black" with evil and "white" with good? Most people do. But, the KKK members, for example, wore white robes. Were they good or evil? Black or white? It's all relative, as usual.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

I believe that everything is possible without brainwashing effects. Even faith. Brainwashing phenomenon is an evil, which can be avoided completely.

I don't think the brainwashing is evil. It's just a part of the culture.

In case you forgot, the USA and the Americas were settled by Europeans. There are places with blue-eye blond Swedes. I know this because I've worked with them. They hate brown people.
Murder rates in USA? pretty high among the immigrants. The Brazilians, Colombians, Venezuelans and Mexicans that come here bring their gangs and drugs. Check the murder rates there.

People cry in anguish when they are deported. People cry in joy when they become citizens. I flew to Chicago to see Belorussian Natalia become USA Citizen Natalia. I'm very happy for her, but sad for her friends in Belarus. Somehow I can't get a visa to Belarus. Russia and Ukraine are happy to let me in to see my "kids".

I've lost track of most of my "kids" because there are so many. I hear from a few for 2-3 years then they vanish. I get some e-mail though: (paraphrased)

"I hated you, I hated the Motel, I hated the USA. I am now a Manager for a hotel in Russia. You were right. I miss you, the Motel and USA. Please come here and speak bad French with the Canadians. Correct my English. Speak bad Russian. Learn German. Are you hiring for next season?"

People actually wonder why I love the J-1 Visa kids.

Well what do you want me to say then... ? Stuff my nationality, my language, my culture and my values.. After all, the USA knows what's best for everyone all over the world, particularly when it comes to economics... It has the right to have military bases anywhere it wants... to invade any country in the world, at any time, for any reasons, real or fake....

I am well aware that the USSR did some terrible things, particularly to its own citizens. But that was many decades ago and the country doesn't even exist anymore. It's old news.
The USA on the other hand is still around though and more aggressive than ever.

AS to who has the most effective brainwasing:
Well, which one of these countries basically dismantled itself, and which country is still convinced that it's the best country on earth? USA 1 - USSR 0!

This is an awesome song about a brainwashed American, who started as a good person and a Christian but believed in all the BS he's heard on TV.. and kills some innocent people in a war, and becomes indifferent to the damage he causes.. Old song. This is the best rock group in Scandinavia for three decades but they usually don't sing in English.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

I'm not so sure about that. I mean, I don't think our grandparents were all stupid and cowards. I think the opposite would better reflect the reality. People were idealistic, progressive, strove to overthrow worn and torn stigmas etc. I think the communistic ideology is smart and cunning, not the primitive and straightforward.

"Primitive and straightforward" was not about ideology. It was about brainwashing technology.

Of course there is nothing about "stupid and cowards". В тридцатые годы в СССР происходило что-то очень странное и уникальное. Какие-то очень глубокие и непонятные запредельные вещи. Современному человеку это представить невозможно, для него такое может быть только в измененном состоянии сознания: "вещества" и т.п. Существовала острая эйфорическая атмосфера какой-то немыслимой экзистенциальной свободы, в том числе и в лагерях, независимо от убеждений и судеб. До нас она доходит отражениями в тогдашних фильмах и книгах как прямо (Герман, Гайдар, Каверин...), так и косвенно (Булгаков, Ильф&Петров...) и даже через вторые руки (Искандер, "Стоянка человека", например.) Кстати, Михалков в первых "Утомленых солнцем" ухитрился ее воспроизвести. Обычные рациональные трактовки здесь не срабатывают. Я долго думал над этим и отчаялся подвести под какой-то шаблон.

Но сама технология, то есть последовательность действий властей, была достаточно простая.

like the word "USA" exactly. Even if you watch the reaction of Hanna some of the forum members here, you'd notice that. And that being said of the [relatively] open and intellectual members.

Yeah, you can say this is subjective and a problem of degree, not of quality. There are no exact proofs, still I feel a big difference between prejudice+templates and physiological rejection. It is very different. First is a controllable simplification tool of the intellect, second is an uncontrollable block for it.

Black or white? It's all relative, as usual.

Let us assume someone say you that black is white. What is your reaction? My reaction is: "oh, really? So, give the definition of black and white, let us see, maybe in some context it is really true". I can be skeptic but I can play around. The brainwashed in "black and white" guy (if such were) will fall into hysterics and start to abuse an interlocutor in a way he normally would find unacceptable himself.

I don't think the brainwashing is evil. It's just a part of the culture.

Everything is either a part of nature or a part of culture, still there are things we can get rid of. There are people invulnerable to that (I don't mean myself ) maybe there are even invulnerable cultures idunno.

I am not brainwashed!

Top 10 great things about the USA:
Amazing nature
Positive and outgoing people
Rock music
Cool art
Gospel music
Great sci-fi movies
Entrepreneurship of Silicon Valley
Cultural melting pot
Homesteading
Lots of great literature.

USA is not such a bad country as many think. When I was younger (say very young) I almost idealized it. It it really free... to a degree. The difference is that freedom is understood differently in different places on Earth. Freedom in USA first and foremost means 'free enterprise'. That's what USA is about. It's ideal for making money (if you're not a complete incompetent at everything). Say, you're a doctor and you don't know anything about making money. All you know is that you know how to heal injuries -- no problem. There will always be a guy who would 'sell' your talent to others. Or imagine you know how to make delicious cookies (well, I am simplifying things a little, but I'm doing it deliberately) -- you'll have a loan in no time at a very low interest rate for opening your business. People do not care where low interests come from they're only interested in them staying low. They do not care about politics and they care even less about what's hapenning in the rest of the world. Many Americans live through their lives without ever travelling abroad (many don't even bother to visit a neighboring state). Well, they're free and probably happy.
It's when you start to mess with politics, it's when you start to think about the rest of the world when the ugliness of the 'regime' starts to emerge.
Nearly all other countries hate USA for being the most prosperous country probably because their inhabitants secretly envy their well-being and of course get frustrated about how unfair things are at the moment.
What? USA treats other countries unfair -- everybody outside US knows that but them, in US just don't care. Am I envious? Oh, probably I am. But no, I'm too 'brainwashed' to go live there.

They are not the most prosperous country though!
Several countries in Europe have a much higher GDP per capita than the USA has.
And there are terrible problems with poverty and segregation in the USA.

Interesting discussion about culture and "brainwashing." One of the best things Hanna left out of her list is that we live under the rule of law. Of course, it gets bent from time to time, but generally it is the standard. I am afraid that some people here view the US through the lens of their own society. Not every government is as bad as some extrapolate from Russia's government.

Here's a list of how corruption is seen to permeate various countries. Russia is very low on the list, but when you say things like "all governments are corrupt" you are basing your thinking on your own experience without realizing that the pattern does not necessarily map to other countries. I am not saying that the US is an angel, just that it may not be as bad as some think.

Corruption Rating Barely Changed | Business | The Moscow Times

Originally Posted by chaika

Here's a list of how corruption is seen to permeate various countries. Russia is very low on the list, but when you say things like "all governments are corrupt" you are basing your thinking on your own experience without realizing that the pattern does not necessarily map to other countries. I am not saying that the US is an angel, just that it may not be as bad as some think.

Have they stopped taking bribes in the Senate and the Congress? They're all right, aren't they?

Plus, the normal view seems to be that anyone who doesn't love and adore the USA is "brainwashed" and must explain themselves.

While it's perfectly ok to throw around the most outrageous, exaggerated and hateful comments about other countries (interestingly the ones that the USA don't like is suspicious against...)

If you ask me, that's a perfect example of very successful brainwashing!

Ramil, yes, much better than yours. Let me know when you find a link to a bribe scandal in Congress.

2 secs of googling revealed this link:
Congressman Admits Taking Bribes, Resigns - washingtonpost.com

I could dig up more, still I'm sure you can do it yourself, just type 'bribes in congress' in the search field.
And I should probably point out that this scandal hapenned because somebody got actually caught. They don't take bribes and announce the fact from the highest balcony in Washington, so I'm practically sure that the practice exists.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Have they stopped taking bribes in the Senate and the Congress? They're all right, aren't they?

Hey, lobbyism is legal in USA, didn't you know?

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Hey, lobbyism is legal in USA, didn't you know?

Well that too. ))) Official bribes are the best. Still I wasn't talking about these.

chaika, you may find this interesting:
Congressional Culture of Bribes

There's but one thing about the American society that I can't bring myself to admire: their ignorance of their own greatness. Most Americans wholeheartedly believe that they are great, without knowing exactly why. Ask average Americans if they've ever heard of William Faulkner, or Richard Feynman, or Bobby Fischer. Few people might have a vague idea, while those guys were absolutely the best ones in their area of expertise.

Russians, on the other hand, are much more conscious of their pluses and minuses. Their contribution to science, art, sports, etc is no less than Americans'; the difference is, Russians are aware of it. Their criticism of their own setbacks is harsh and severe (especially in matters dealing with politics), but they're also truly proud of their national identity.

In America, it looks like following the orders: you believe that you're great, just because that's what you are told to do. Or rather, that's what everybody does without knowing why.

National Consciousness. I suppose this is ultimately what makes a nation a Nation.

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

National Consciousness. I suppose this is ultimately what makes a nation a Nation.

What nation?

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

There's but one thing about the American society that I can't bring myself to admire: their ignorance

Put a period here.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I am not brainwashed!
Top 10 great things about the USA:
Amazing nature
[...]

Ha-ha! That reminds me of an old saying from the Soviet Union times:

- What's great about the USA?
- The Great Lakes.

It's very natural you think those are the thoughts of your own. The good propaganda differs from the bad one specifically in that point.

Here's a poster from the olde times that goes along the lines of your perception of the USA:



So, my sincere congrats to you - you've been bamboozled!! brainwashed like everybody else.