Thread: An alternative view of the USA & some other countries

Don't be silly Croc! And any brainwashing you recieved in the USSR seems to have been reversed, to the exact opposite, so it can't have been very good!

Why should I be brainwashed? There was some mildly socialist stuff going on when I was a kid, but nothing compared to the USSR for example.
If they didn't get to you, then they surely didn't get to me! Some of that socialist stuff was pretty darn irritating, come to think about it.
It puts you OFF, if anything.

And note: I have no issue with Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Japan etc... They don't do any of the aggressive things that the USA do!

Plus, like I said, I really like American people (just a shame they are so brainwashed!!)

Originally Posted by Hanna

Don't be silly Croc! And any brainwashing you recieved in the USSR seems to have been reversed, to the exact opposite, so it can't have been very good!

Ok, so re-phrasing what Ramil likes to say about the democracy and freedom, at least I realize I am brainwashed too. And since you don't, that makes you much more severely brainwashed.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Why should I be brainwashed?

Because, the only way you can't be brainwashed is when you start judging using your own experience. Then you would be subjective, but not brainwashed. As of now, you just repeat what other people say with the logical stresses that other people make. Sometimes, you have admitted a couple of times, you can't even repeat the logic of the other people, only remembering they were convincing.

Originally Posted by Hanna

There was some mildly socialist stuff going on when I was a kid, but nothing compared to the USSR for example.

Ok, so let's go back to our example with the USA. You mentioned [with heat] a couple of times you hate the US's military bases all across Europe. What have those bases ever done to you [as a kid]? Were the military personnel used to destroy your sand box with their military boots?

Originally Posted by Hanna

And note: I have no issue with Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Japan etc... They don't do any of the aggressive things that the USA do!

That's just because you were brainwashed differently. For example, N. Korea & China perceive Japan as an aggressor. Also, do you know that Russia is still formally at war with Japan over the islands? The military actions could technically resume at any moment.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Plus, like I said, I really like American people (just a shame they are so brainwashed!!)

I'm pretty sure American people would gladly accept your highly intellectual and unbiased pity.

I could easily write another ten great things about the USA.
But it sounds like you are determined to believe that I am brainwashed instead of considering the possibility that I siimply have some valid objections about US foreign policy based on undisputable facts...

So, I challenge you Crocodile!

Write ten good things about Russia or the USSR (pick either!)

Originally Posted by Hanna

Write ten good things about Russia or the USSR (pick either!)

Top 10 great things about the USSR:
Baikal
Rockets
Yenisei dam
Ballet
Vodka
Balalaika
Bears
Matroska
Cultural melting pot
Lots of great literature

Pioneer Camps? Chess? Boris Grebenschikov?

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Top 10 great things about the USSR:

+1

...

...

Croc don't cheat! You should come up with your own...
Давай!!

Originally Posted by Hanna

Croc don't cheat! You should come up with your own...
Давай!!

Oh my ... Ok ...

Amazing nature
Sincere people
Classic music
Cool art
Pop music
Great WWII movies
The best weapons
Cultural melting pot
Science
Lots of great literature.

PS. So, what was the challenge all about?

Hmmm ok! Well if everyone is a bit brainwashed then I guess I am a bit too.

And you are right that I really can't stand those bases in Europe. There are some very good personal/national reasons for that but I don't want to bang on about Sweden when this is a forum about Russia. But yo summarise: the US did a couple of sneaky and rather underhand things.

Plus, you see these American military transports in Germany and other places -- it's extremely offputting. Now they want it in Eastern Europe too. Turn on the radio and you get American airbase radio station... like.. whose country is this!!?? Here in the UK I worked on a military IT project a few years ago (had to undergo security clearance for that) The work was partly at a British defense facility and my movements were pretty restricted - the limited access made it hard to work efficiently. Meanwhile, American officers, including techies were in and out like the owned the place!



Why do Americans want their country to do this?
Or is it done against their will?

Originally Posted by Hanna

Why do Americans want their country to do this?
Or is it done against their will?

Because:

Originally Posted by Ramil

Nearly all other countries hate USA for being the most prosperous country probably because their inhabitants secretly envy their well-being and of course get frustrated about how unfair things are at the moment.

...

Well personally I don't hate America for being prosperous, and I am not jealous about their prosperity (actually I personally am as well off, or better, as the average American anyway). I have nothing against them having a nice lifestyle their and doing whatever they like within the borders of their own country.

There are a few things about America that I admire and would like to see more of in Europe, but I am not jealous about it, per se.

I can see that people in less prosperous part of the world might feel pure jelaousy towards material prosperity in America though, and I think many in the the Moslem world are disgusted by what they percieve as a very promiscuous and excessive lifestyles in America; spurred on by media. They feel threatened that these values are imposed from the outside, on their own countries.

My own issue is simply with the USAs military presences outside of its' own borders... and with some aspects of its' foreign policy, such as serious meddliing in the affairs of other countries, imposing all encompassing economical sanctions on countries they don't like, etc.

(I just read in the paper today that the USA had set up an office in Oslo to spy on Norwegian citizens, without bothering to inform the state there. It was just discovered and Norwegians are pretty upset. If it goes on there, then its safe to say it goes on in every single European country. Norway is my neighbour/brother country - very fond of it. They should not be spied on by anyone!)

Originally Posted by Hanna

Hmmm ok! Well if everyone is a bit brainwashed then I guess I am a bit too.

Hmm.. a nice hopping from "no, I'm not brainwashed" through the "challenge" to "ok, I'm brainwashed". Could you spell it out for me?

Originally Posted by Hanna

And you are right that I really can't stand those bases in Europe. There are some very good personal/national reasons for that [...]

Would you be able, at least, to provide a hint? I mean, I can provide a typical personal reason why the military bases are good. They very noticeably contribute to the local economy. The term "national reason" sounds like a pure result of brainwashing. Do you have any idea what the national reasons might be? Those are, in fact, a biased interpretation of some decisions by a group of politicians fighting with another group of politicians over the influence. As an intelligent person, you might realize there are pros and cons to just about anything done on the political arena. The decisions are made based on many [sometimes contradicting] factors. Subsequently, the decisions are presented in various ways with various interpretation. Please-please-please, when you reason with people, try to avoid the term "national reasons/interests/etc." as that would be an insult to their intelligence.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Norway is my neighbour/brother country - very fond of it. They should not be spied on by anyone!)

Why not? If they have nothing to hide except for me and my monkey?

Let's bring back those Russian spies to the USA then. Maybe they can live next to you and use your PC and wireless connection, and pass back the latest news on your movements to spying headquarters in Moscow! You haven't got anything to hide, do you?

It's impossible to argue with you about this Croc, because you essentially see the US and it's military as a power of goodness to be embraced by all the world, while I don't! It's great that you like your new home country, and you are sure going all the way with the US patriotism. Good for you, but like I said, I don't like it.

Just in case there is any confusion: I don't want any Russian, Chinese or other spies, bases etc in my backyard either!
However, by far the biggest culprits on this front is the USA. Russia packed up its bases from Europe in the early 90s and the USA should have done the same. We don't need them and France and UK have nukes enough to defend Europe.

I'll explain the national reasons some other time, it's a bit complex and long winded and I doubt anyone else is interested. But it sure p-d me off to learn about it.

Originally Posted by Hanna

It's impossible to argue with you about this Croc, because you essentially see the US and it's military as a power of goodness to be embraced by all the world, while I don't! It's great that you like your new home country [...]

Ah? When have I ever said the US is a power of goodness? That's another sign you've been brainwashed: you think whoever disagrees with the propaganda you believe in would surely believe in the other side propaganda. Also, my new home is not the US, so unfortunately you've been mistaken in that as well.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Let's bring back those Russian spies to the USA then. Maybe they can live next to you and use your PC and wireless connection, and pass back the latest news on your movements to spying headquarters in Moscow! You haven't got anything to hide, do you?

No, I haven't. In fact, I don't need to wait for the spies to use my PC as they have much more powerful PC and I would really like to use theirs. Also, almost everything you do in the Internet would be kept in logs and almost any [seemingly secured] data transfer could be recorded and decoded. The real spies use different types of connection. Also, it's well-known that most of the information could be dug up from the legitimate sources, no need for conspiracy. The latter is used for the disinformation of their own governments to justify the maintenance of the headquarters. Most of the operational costs are covered by the fully legitimate sources, so no connection with the spying state could be detected. I'm pretty sure the loss of the so-called 'Russian spies' that you mentioned had not disrupted to the least the information flow and the analysis.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I'll explain the national reasons some other time, it's a bit complex and long winded and I doubt anyone else is interested.

Well, Lampada hadn't banned both of us so far, so I can say with some degree of confidence she would not ban you for explaining the national interests either. Also, if the explanation is so complex as you said, you can open a new thread about the national interests and whoever is bored with that topic would just skip it. You challenged me, remember? So, now it's your turn not to evade the answer.

Ok I'll answer your question about that other stuff later. (don't have time today).

As for the rest: I don't like to argue for the sake of it. I have already explained my view and nothing so far has convinced me to change my mind.

I am personally convinced that the Europe would be a better place if the USA withdraw its bases from it, and that the world would be a better place if the US stopped starting wars and getting involved in conflicts far from its own territory.

I have no extremist views and I don't wish America bad in any way.
But I think that if Americans thought about it objectively they'd probably prefer their tax money to be spent on something better than supporting the war industry, creating mayhem abroad and making them inpopular in large parts of the world.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I have already explained my view and nothing so far has convinced me to change my mind.

Yeah... as they say: don't underestimate the power of the brainwashing... People pick up their opinions easily and arbitrarily, but are very reluctant to re-evaluate them. QED.

Yeah but this is a fruitless discussion. We're just going round in circles.
Face-to-face over a nice dinner I'd enjoy this discussion though! Maybe sometime!!!