Thread: Почему распался Советский Союз? Что происходит в Прибалтике, и немного истории

Originally Posted by Basil77

By neighbours you mean Belorussia? But it has a discount as a member of Customs Union. You can also apply for membership and ask a discount after that. Btw, if you want to have nothing common with Russia why you keep buying gas from us and whinie about high prices? Buy it from your fellow NATO member Norway for example (but mind that Norway's export gas prices are even higher than the current price you are paying to Russia).

No, I mean Latvia, Estonia and Poland Are all these countries also members of customs union?

Originally Posted by Basil77

How about all the cities and towns in modern Khazakhstan and Ukrainian Black Sea coast? Even Narva in modern Estonia was founded by Russians.

Haha you founded one city in Estonia Well done, good achievement after such destruction of this country

Originally Posted by Basil77

See photos in ВарраВа's post.

See what I wrote under barbara’s post

Originally Posted by Basil77

You can enjoy your life in "free democratic republics" now:

Source:
Late-2000s recession - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

YES, YOU CAN’T EVEN IMAGINE HOW MUCH I’M ENJOYING IT

Taken from Wikipedia:
Lithuania is a member of the European Union and the biggest economy among three Baltic states. GDP per capita reached USD17,800 in 2008 and was higher than the ones of all its neighbors – Latvia, Poland, RUSSIA and Belarus[9].
GDP per capita in Lithuania is 70% above the world’s average of USD 10,500[9]. Lithuania has a favorable legislative basis for business as the country is ranked the 3rd in the region of Eastern Europe and Central Asia[10] and the 26th in the world by the Ease of Doing Business Index prepared by the World Bank Group [11]. Lithuania is ranked the 30th out of 179 countries in the Index of Economic Freedom, measured by The Heritage Foundation[12]. According to the Human Development Report 2009, Lithuania belongs to the group of high human development countries.
Economy of Lithuania - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by mergike

there was a partizanian war against USSR in 1944-1953

These "partizans" were the ones who served in Hitler's army and were afraid of rightful punishment for their crimes.

Originally Posted by mergike

No, I mean Latvia, Estonia and Poland Are all these countries also members of customs union?

Well, as I wrote above, if you don't like the price, buy gas somethere else.

Haha you founded one city in Estonia Well done, good achievement after such destruction of this country

Destruction, yeah.

According to the Human Development Report 2009, Lithuania belongs to the group of high human development countries.

Human development index counts most of all education and most of your adult population got one, at least partially, in so awful Soviet times.

look that Germans did to Russians during WWII (and Balts were happily helping them in this): 27 million killed, 18 million from this number are civillians, but we don't blame modern Germans for this, actually attitude to modern Germans in Russia is rather friendly, we blame Hitler and Nazism wich are secretly admired in Baltics nowdays. How about acting like grown-ups and forgive&forget like we did?

We do not blame modern Germans too - because their predecessors abandoned Nazism ideology, apologized and paid compensations to every victim of Nazi regime.
Nowadays Nazi ideology is illegal in Germany and they (except some nutjobs) do not celebrate Nazi "victories" and "achievements".

Russia on the other hand refuses to abandon Soviet legacy, Communist party is not illegal, communist war criminals are not prosecuted - former KGB operative was your president LOL - In Latvia former KGB operatives are not allowed to run for electable office till the end of their lives - (Russia protested when Latvia prosecuted Vassili Kononov (I'm glad that this bastard, who burned pregnant woman alive, is finally dead, hope he rots in hell . They also do not want to extradite Mikhail Golovatov who is responsible for 13.01.1991. massacre in Vilnius.).
They still celebrate Brezhnev's "Victory day" - even Staļin himself did not celebrate anything - because even he apparently thought that there is nothing to celebrate for.

These "partizans" were the ones who served in Hitler's army and were afraid of rightful punishment for their crimes.

Soviet propaganda likes to repeat that. The truth is that partisans fought against BOTH invaders.
These who joined Nazis after communist atrocities in 1940 - can't really blame them - if my family was killed and/or deported to Siberia i would have joined Wehrmacht too to avenge them.

and were afraid of rightful punishment for their crimes.

No one in Latvian Legion was prosecuted for war crimes.
Arajs Kommando of course is completely different matter, but no one except nutjobs celebrate his crimes now.

Destruction, yeah.

I killed your family, but I built you a house - be grateful....

It seems to have become a national hobby in the Baltic states to talk about this.
Why don't you let the past be the past and look to the future? Latvia and Estonia have a got a lot going for them, and some of those things are actually due to the USSR times. (I won't make the mistake of including Lithuania again because I don't know a lot about that).

I have never discussed it with Latvians and Lithuanians before (except now) but Estonians are always talking about it.
Several times I've heard Finnish and Swedish people tell them to just shut up. That is perhaps insensitive, but lots of Finnish and Swedish people went to Estonia in the Soviet times (my dad for example) and things looked fine. Plus everyone has heard the complaints so many times.

Estonian SSR was only marginally worse off than Finland (and it's always been that way, so that was nothing new for the USSR era) before the 1980s, and in Estonia everyone had a job during the Soviet years, in contrast to Finland which had horrible unemployment and quite bad poverty, causing almost a million to emigrate. Estonians were able to go to Finland on holiday during this time. If it was so terrible, they could have stayed, but practically nobody did.

The problems with the USSR are already well known and for the Baltic states, most of the bad things happened in the 1940s and early 50s, and after the death of Stalin, things calmed down. Some good things DID come out of the Soviet years - for example lots of good public buildings and structures, and high level of education.

Scandinavia for example was full of goodwill and wanted to help in the 1990s. Also the EU. But there was so much criminality coming from there and it was like "we just want aid and compensation and compassion, but we are going to steal your cars and rob your houses".

The Nazis did not build schools and hospitals in the countries they invaded! It's a different situation.

Remember that the Soviets / Russians thought that they were doing the right thing towards the Baltics. Liberating etc. They thought they were helping working class people and would build communism etc, etc. Good goals, as far as they were concerned. And the Baltic states were not rich countries before the Soviet era. A lot of people might have got better lives as USSR citizens than they otherwise would have had.

And yes, everyone already knows that this came at a wrong/immoral price of some being deported and that religion was wrongly supressed etc.

Also, all the Soviet SSRs were run by local people in practically all important places, weren't they? It was not like Russians from Moscow came in and took over the country. Lots of local people joined the communist party and generally participated in the socialist state.

Perhaps it's more convenient to just say "it's all the Russians fault" than admit that a majority probably (I don't know, but I'd guess) went along or actively participated in USSR life. Either because they were cynics or because they genuinely saw that some good things came out of it, or believed in the ideals.

My point is: You are in the EU, you are in Nato, you've got your independence with practically no bloodshed. Things could be a lot worse: The USSR had already educated people very well, looked after their health and got them a job and somewhere to live. Despite this, everybody sympathisizes with what the Baltic states went through.
But now it's time to look to the future!

As far as I understand, no one from Baltic states cares to recall those events and constantly talk about them. It's just when they're told they should give some other languages besides their only ones the official status, they simply explain why that can't be done.

Also, all the Soviet SSRs were run by local people in practically all important places, weren't they? It was not like Russians from Moscow came in and took over the country. Lots of local people joined the communist party and generally participated in the socialist state.

Actually it was - if someone wanted to do something that Moscow disapproved, they immediately sent tanks inside.
Google "Prague Spring" or "Budapest 1956" and these countries weren't even part of Soviet Union.

"it's all the Russians fault"

I do not blame Russians, I blame communists and their defective by design ideology.

Why don't you let the past be the past and look to the future?

Because as I said - Russia does not want to abandon and deal with its past - it is constantly glorifying it - just like in Soviet times.
If Russia's official propaganda constantly says that USSR liberated us - what should we do - simply agree with them?
Do you think that Lithuania should simply forgive bastards like Golovatov and let him walk free after what he did?

Estonians were able to go to Finland on holiday during this time.

All "holidayer" groups were infiltrated by KGB agents that watched after any potential "stayers".

The constant talking about exiling to Siberia amuses me a lot. Living here all my life I can say that there is a good bunch of Jewish names around here as well as a good bunch of German names (it is possible that they are the descendants of WWII captives) though these days these people are native Russians and only their surnames provides an idea of their origins. But during all my life I hardly ever met a person with a Baltic type of surname. Taking in to account that according to our Baltic guests every Baltic state lost about 300 000 which were exiled to Siberia I had to be occupied by Baltic people here.

Not everyone stayed there - some died en route, some died in camps, and some (like my grandparents) returned home after Stalin's death.

Originally Posted by nulle

I do not blame Russians

Ok, that's a good thing because nobody here is responsible for it and they probably feel bad that the USSR time is so disliked in the Baltic states.

Since most people on the forum are Russians and all this is already known to them, perhaps we should just leave the topic.

Nobody here has defended Stalin's idea to incorporate the Baltic states or deport civilians.

Personally I like Russian culture and I think that Russian people are among the nicest and most sincere & fun Europeans. It's a pity that all the USSR legacy is preventing many people from seeing what is really a beautiful and interesting country with fundamentally friendly and fun people.

Perhaps you should get yourself a visa and check it out Nulle? Just go against the stream a bit. That doesn't mean that you agree with anything that Stalin did etc - just that look to the future and not the past. Btw, being trilingual with Latvian, Russian and English is very impressive in the eyes of most people. After all, Russian is a language spoken by over 200 million people.
Or go to Belarus or Ukraine (don't need a visa for Ukraine).

Originally Posted by Basil77

Destruction, yeah.


Human development index counts most of all education and most of your adult population got one, at least partially, in so awful Soviet times.

You know I’m studying Political science at Vytautas Magnus university, which before occupation was called University of Lithuania. However, when Russians occupied Lithuania this university like many other universities and was simply closed and a warehouse was mare of it. (They also made warehouses of churches in Lithuania, I guess it was one of their favorite activities, even Vilnius Arkikatedra kad to become a warehouse in soviet times http://www.vestuviugidas.lt/images/c...34_image_5.jpg ) So, if you are thinking that by closing Lithuanian universities and schools you helped to improve education then think again because one more time you are talking nonsences.
Or maybe we should remember how their forced Lithuanians to become a pioneers and join communist party because otherwise they weren’t allowed to study at any university at all. And By the way even if you finished such university no one allowed you to stay in Lithuania but told to go and work inside of Russia. So what country’s education they tried to improve??
This is how USSR tried to ‘’improve’’ education in Lithuania. At least it’s what they did there.

Originally Posted by nulle

Russia on the other hand refuses to abandon Soviet legacy, Communist party is not illegal, communist war criminals are not prosecuted - former KGB operative was your president LOL - In Latvia former KGB operatives are not allowed to run for electable office till the end of their lives - (Russia protested when Latvia prosecuted Vassili Kononov (I'm glad that this bastard, who burned pregnant woman alive, is finally dead, hope he rots in hell . They also do not want to extradite Mikhail Golovatov who is responsible for 13.01.1991. massacre in Vilnius.).
They still celebrate Brezhnev's "Victory day" - even Staļin himself did not celebrate anything - because even he apparently thought that there is nothing to celebrate for.

Yes, Nulle all you said is complete truth and the fact that Austria few days ago let Michail Golovatov come back to Russia and now he is sitting on his couch somewhere in Moscow really discredits EU cooperation… This way, Austria just simply betrayed values of EU. And Lithuania is going to do everything so that next time when Golovatov will be flying to the hills to calm down his conscience for the massacres he made, he would get what he deserved. Lithuanians look at him the same way Americans looked at Osama bin Laden and one day he still will have to pay for everything he did to Lithuania.

Originally Posted by Basil77

Well, as I wrote above, if you don't like the price, buy gas somethere else.

Well it's no surprise that you couln't deny that Lithuania is paying a political price. It's just obvious isn't it?

Mergike; I don't know anything about Mikhail Golovatov but if anything, the EU is usually partial AGAINST Russia, so whatever he did can't be a big outrage, or he would have found himself in the Hague answering for whatever he did.

If we are talking about EU values, and being completely true to them - then the Baltic states MUST respect the language situation of the Russian speakers more than they do at the moment. It is such a basic thing in the EU that the situation in the Balticsa is really hard to grasp when you are used to constantly seeing countries going to almost ridiculous rights to respect their language minorities.
Whereas the Baltic states is almost doing the opposite - not to mention the issue of citizenship.

It's a pity that all the USSR legacy is preventing many people from seeing what is really a beautiful and interesting country with fundamentally friendly and fun people.

In my posts I was referring to Russian state official policy - not Russian people.
And this policy apparently is to protect criminals.

so whatever he did can't be a big outrage

Yeah - murder of 14 people is nothing special...
Austrians arrested him, because there was issued an arrest warrant.
Lithuanians were asking Austria to extradite him, but they cowardly let him free.
Baltic states already have started to "make noise" about this.

Things like these simply can't be forgotten.

this university like many other universities and was simply closed and a warehouse was mare of it

What else you can do to an university after all teachers/lecturers etc. have been deported?

Originally Posted by Hanna

Mergike; I don't know anything about Mikhail Golovatov but if anything, the EU is usually partial AGAINST Russia, so whatever he did can't be a big outrage, or he would have found himself in the Hague answering for whatever he did.

If we are talking about EU values, and being completely true to them - then the Baltic states MUST respect the language situation of the Russian speakers more than they do at the moment. It is such a basic thing in the EU that the situation in the Balticsa is really hard to grasp when you are used to constantly seeing countries going to almost ridiculous rights to respect their language minorities.
Whereas the Baltic states is almost doing the opposite - not to mention the issue of citizenship.

Baltic states paid low price for their independence??? If you really think that it‘s a low price when when soviet tanks are crushing alive unarmed Lithuanians who are making a peacefull demonstration and everything seems just really normal to you then maybe:
A) You do not have heart in your chest.
B) You are not able to understand what are you talking. So which is the right answer?
And just for your info: As Nulle said before Michail Golovatov is responsible for this massacre in 1991 01 13 (at least try to read what nulle is writting) when soviet tanks crushed unarmed peacefull Lithuanians. Of course, he wasn‘t the only one who made all this. The other ones who took part in this even‘t and killed Lithuanians are hiding in Russia and Russia aren‘t extraaditing these criminals. Anyway, if you haven‘t already heard about this event , soon you will hear about it. And don‘t worry even though now he escaped and didn‘t get what he deserved next time everything will not end so well for Golovatov.
Furthermore, stop talking about these discriminations against Russians. I said that there is no discrimination against them and if you think differently then give a proof. But the truth is that you simply do not have such thing, right? So, I‘m again telling you again to stop talking such nonsences.
By the way, if you want to complain and try to convince everyone that it‘s very bad for Russians to live in Latvia then go and make your posts in the thread about this topic. This thread isn‘t about Russian minorities, is it clear?

Originally Posted by nulle

What else you can do to an university after all teachers/lecturers etc. have been deported?

Just to close it, it was the only one thing what left for Russians to do and they liked it so much.

January Events (Lithuania) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - Hanna - maybe do some research first...