Hello everyone.I am new to the russian language so please be patient with me.
The language tutor I am using uses " у нас " when saying "we have" two children. Why is "мы имеем " not used for "we have"
большое спасибо - Eric
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Hello everyone.I am new to the russian language so please be patient with me.
The language tutor I am using uses " у нас " when saying "we have" two children. Why is "мы имеем " not used for "we have"
большое спасибо - Eric
Мы имеем двоих детей, собаку и телевизор. For me it sounds more like "We owe/possess two children". It's both archaich and weird/ it's too literal and formal, too impersonal in everything to do with these two children. For the modern listener this sounds like if the children were the part the list of inherited things: two golden chandelliers, five framed portraits of unknown ancestors, two children of five and nine years (boys), a statue of Roman Godess (with the abscent nose), one turkish rug (burned in the center) and so on. Instead we use "У нас есть", it doesn't differ too much with "We have".Quote:
Originally Posted by barkeep
Do you owe а family? - Ты имеешь семью? - weird, wrong.
Do you have а family? - У тебя есть семья? - usual, right.
To prevent anyone's try to add the following information (and I have the reasons to think they certainly would appeare), I have decided to write it down by myself.
Иметь жену\детей can be taken (by spoiled foolish teenagers) as the act of the sexual possession.
Мы имеем двух детей sounds like we own two children. Although it's ok to use it.
"У нас двое детей" is more natural.
«У нас» is the best choice, without any chance of misunderstanding.
Артём совершенно прав, у нас или у нас естьQuote:
Originally Posted by Rtyom
Спасибо, сударь. Готов ометить, что ваш вклад не менее ценен, а где-то даже превосходит мой скромный... *смайлик, снимающий шляпу*
Я очень! *смайлик, снимающий шляпу и делающий поклон*Quote:
Originally Posted by Rtyom
Well, I'd ask why is "there is at us" not used for "у нас есть" in English?... :) Can you answer?Quote:
Originally Posted by barkeep
"мы имеем двух детей" doesn't sound natural at all.
You asked a good question, but one whose answer probably requires a lot of study of historical linguistics. Since Russian and English come from a common ancestor, you would wonder why they are so different nowadays, and not only grammar, as you asked.
If I remember my grad school history of Russian correctly, the ancient Varangian language expressed possession in this way, and for some reason or other their neighbors, the Slavs, decided to use it instead of имѣти. The answer to your question is contained in the above posts, but you are probably not supposed to learn about иметь in first-year Russian.
Did you ever hear the song Bei mir bist du sheyn? = By me you are pretty. That's Yiddish, but a construction that resembles the Russian style of expressing possession. We don't use it in English except in the phrase "That's OK by me" and similar.
"To Be" Language
http://masterrussian.com/aa120199a.shtml
To make an example of a European "to be-language" (see MasterAdmin's link), Finnish is one.
[i]H
[quote=Leushka]To make an example of a European "to be-language" (see MasterAdmin's link), Finnish is one.
[i]H
[quote=Боб Уайтман][quote=Leushka]To make an example of a European "to be-language" (see MasterAdmin's link), Finnish is one.
[i]H
В некоторых ситуациях "у меня" звучит хуже.
Quote:
Если б я был султан,
Я б имел трёх жён
И тройной красотой
Был бы окружён.
Был бы я султаном - было бы у меня три жены!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wowik
Чем хуже?
И потом, это стихи.
"Он имел" - это его собственность (или что-то неотъемлимое).Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
"У него" - это его или собственность или он просто распоряжается. Не так солидно.
"Он имеет домик в деревне" - явно в собственности.
"У него есть домик в деревне" - может бабушкин или снимает.
This may have been mentioned already, but I'll offer my two cents here (bearing in mind i'm not a native Russian):
I've been taught that у кого-нибудь (есть) is used to convey the physical presence of something related to you, or your physical ownership of something, such as у меня большой стул. However, in my experience иметь is used to express possession of abstractions. By an abstraction, just to clarify, I mean something which is a noun but has no material existence - it cannot be picked up, touched or whatever. One such abstraction is freedom - свобода: Она имеет свободу, чтобы делать то, что она хочет. - She has the freedom to do what she wants.
Note that the thing possessed in the у кого-нибудь (есть) construction takes the nominative case, whereas after иметь it's a straightforward object of the verb and hence takes the accusative.
No doubt this is wrong, but as a mere student of Russian that's my attempt at an explanation. :) I hope it's helpful.
It doesn't sound Russian.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan91
I don't think the idea is right. An example:
Я меня есть ощущение, что он врёт.
Ощущение is an abstraction. But "Я имею ощущение, что он врёт" sounds very odd.
"Я имею свою мнение" sounds a bit odd, too.
"У меня есть свое мнение" is much more common.
"Я имею любовь" sounds very bad.
"У меня есть любовь" sounds fine.
And so on. We just rarely use "иметь".
OK. I guess I will simply avoid иметь in future. :P My teacher, who is English but has been teaching Russian for 30 years said that иметь was for abstractions, so I'll present this argument to him. I love being difficult. :D
Yes, maybe it's a good idea... And never say "у меня большой стул"!! :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan91
What's wrong with saying "I have a big chair"? If someone asked me "У тебя что в спальне?" I would reply "У меня большой стул, кровать" и так далее, нет?
There is nothing wrong with "I have a big chair", but there is something wrong with "у меня большой стул".Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan91
First, if someone asked me "что у тебя в спальне?", I don't think I'd answer "у меня XXX". I'd answer either:
у меня в спальне XXX.
or just
XXX.
Second, "стул" in Russian means also "stool" (in the medical sense). So, when you say "у меня большой стул", it means... well, you can guess. :)
Third, if I just want to say that I have a big chair, I'd say "у меня есть большой стул". So there is a difference between "у меня большой стул" and "у меня есть большой стул".
Точно.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Barkeep, you are basically asking the question "why doesn't Russian say stuff in the sams way that English does?". The answer: Russian is not English.
And regarding Finnish, it is a European language, in the sense that, it's a language spoken by a European people, but it's NOT Indo-European. Basically that means Punjabi and English are even more related than English and Finnish are.
I see, Оля. :lol: I've never really understood the purpose of есть in this construction. How is the meaning of у меня вещь different to the meaning of у меня есть вещь?
Me too! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Ryan91
I just feel it when I use it in some context, but I can't explain it. I think it must be really hard.
To be honest, I don't know why we say "у меня есть машина", but "у меня _ двое детей".
Mmm, this is where the difficulties in interpreting languages lies. For me it is of course almost impossible to 'feel' or 'sense' whether words and phrases sound correct in Russian, especially when as subtle as this. Equally I've been asked why certain things are the way they are in English grammar, and my only explanation is "it just is". :oops:
Don't you omit есть for inherent things, i.e.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
eyes, hair, etc.
Yes, we do.Quote:
Originally Posted by TATY
Просто это более книжный (неразговорный) стиль речиQuote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Ну, сейчас я постараюсь говорить по-русский...
Так, Wowik, если я пишу сочинение, мне надо использовать глагол "иметь" для абстракций (как "мнение")?
"Я имею свою мнение" - да, это книжный стиль, и так можно сказать. Но "я имею ощущение" - просто ни в какие ворота. Неужели ты слышал, чтобы так говорили (или писали)? :oQuote:
Originally Posted by Wowik
Я не Wowik, но отвечу: not at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan91
Нет буквы Й в "по-русски"? Интересно... я не знал. Я рад, что нет других ощибок. Думаю, что я буду избегать слово до времени, когда я пойму язык лучше. :lol: (Или "я лучше пойму язык"..?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan91
http://www.yandex.ru/yandsearch?text="имею ощущение"Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leof
Хм, мне кажется, там во многих случаях "имею ощущение" написано в шутку.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wowik
По-любому, "у меня есть ощущение" звучит НАМНОГО лучше, натуральнее и привычнее.
Я посмотрел... 464 результата — маловато для Рунета. Сравни с результатами поиска по фразе "у меня такое ощущение" — найдено 365 485 страницы. Действительно, "имею ощущение" звучит не по-русски.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wowik
Представляете! В Гугле 212 тыщь вариантов с "по-русский"!
по-русски is an adverb.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan91
Most adjectives form adverbs by adding an O or E to a stem:
интересный - интересно
красивый - красиво
Adjectives in -ский forms adverbs with the ending -ски
Thus:
по-русски, по-английски, по-украински ect.
"У меня есть ощущение" мне как-то не очень нравится.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Я бы предпочла "У меня появилось/возникло ощущение, что ...".
"У меня есть впечатление, что ..." звучит неплохо.