Thread: Russian verbal aspects and tenses

Originally Posted by Ryan91

Originally Posted by Оля

Originally Posted by Ryan91

Example of a PVM:

входить - to go in(to), to enter habitually or generally- imperfective (Я вхожу в магазине еженедельно. - I go into the shop every week.)

The sentence is wrong. It should be:
Я хожу в магазин_ еженедельно (or каждую неделю).

Agreed. I've always thought it a bit odd the way in which "in" is conveyed twice in the phrase входить в. I asked my teacher whether you could omit the preposition and say входить комнату, but he said that the preposition has to be present. The way you arrange the sentence, with a non-prefixed verb followed by a preposition makes much more sense to me, as there is no need to prefix the verb when the preposition after it satisfactorily alters the meaning.

I'm afraid you've got it wrong.
You think that "вхожу в магазин" was replaced by "хожу в магазин" to avoid duplicating of "в"? But that is not the case.
The matter is входить/войти means "to enter some room or space", "to penetrate inside", that is what actually the prefix "в-" implies. And the preposition "в" means "into" in this case, you are right.
However, ходить/идти just means "to go, to move (on foot)" without specifying how it is related to a place, it may be approaching, maybe moving off, may be visiting etc.

So, when speaking about a room (комната), if you say "Я вхожу в комнату" it means "I enter the room (inside)", at the moment of speech, or regularly. If you say "Я хожу в комнату" you only mean "I visit the room (on a regular basis)".

But in your sentence with the shop (магазин) your expression "Я вхожу в магазин каждый день" sounds weird, like "I enter inside the shop every day". You don't need to specify entering it, you just imply visiting: "Я хожу в магазин каждый день".

Hmm, sounds more stylistic than anything, and stylistic writing in Russian is currently something too advanced from me. Surely from the context of a sentence a Russian speaker will not be confused by my misuse of (в)ходить/(во)йти в?

Originally Posted by Ryan91

Hmm, sounds more stylistic than anything, and stylistic writing in Russian is currently something too advanced from me. Surely from the context of a sentence a Russian speaker will not be confused by my misuse of (в)ходить/(во)йти в?

No, that's not stylistic. That's a lexical mistake.

Войти only means to enter inside, as I explained.

If you wish to construct sentences correctly, you'll have to take note of that.

You can just compare:

"Каждый день я хожу в магазин, покупаю хлеб и молоко"

Every day I go to a shop (visit a shop), and buy bread and milk

but:

"Когда я вхожу в магазин, я оставляю сумку в камере хранения"

When I enter a shop, I leave my bag in a safe cell.

Hope, that helps.
BTW, what's the correct word for that safe cell, or box in English?

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

"Каждый день я хожу в магазин, покупаю хлеб и молоко"

You see, I really can't see how the meaning of that sentence would change if I was to say Каждый день я вхожу в магазин, покупаю хлеб и молоко

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

BTW, what's the correct word for that safe cell, or box in English?

I think the word you're looking for is 'locker.'

Originally Posted by Ryan91

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

"Каждый день я хожу в магазин, покупаю хлеб и молоко"

You see, I really can't see how the meaning of that sentence would change if I was to say Каждый день я вхожу в магазин, покупаю хлеб и молоко

OK, the meaning would be something like this:
"Every day I enter a shop, buy bread and milk"
You accentuate entering the building, i.e. you open a door, go inside.

"вхожу" is more specific than "хожу"

"хожу" is general: you mention all the process of "going to a shop": you leave your home, then walk, then enter a shop, buy something, go out, and come back home. That's what "Я каждый день хожу в магазин" means.

"вхожу" is only applicable to the moment when you "cross the border" between "the space outside the shop" and "the inner space" (inside the shop), it usually implies opening the door (if it's not automatic ) and finding yourself inside.

I'll give you one more example, when the action is being performed at the moment of speech, not regularly as in the case of the shop. I think it'll become clearer for you:
Suppose you are going to a hotel to visit someone. And someone else is calling to your cell-phone. He is asking:
"Ты уже в гостинице?" Are you already in the hotel?
You have 2 possible versions:
1. "Нет, я ещё иду в гостиницу" No, I'm still going to the hotel (you're still somewhere in the street, but your goal is to reach the hotel)
Note. You use "иду" not "хожу" here because it's the moment of speech, and a definite direction.
2. "Да, я уже вхожу в гостиницу" Yes, I'm already coming in (i.e. entering it) You are just passing the door!
Note. Now you use "вхожу", the verb is prefixed, and it can express the definite motion.

Does it help?

If turning back to your example, what do you want to express with your phrase "I go to a shop every day"? I doubt that you meant "the process of entering the building from the street inside". I think, you are rather interested in the fact that you just visit it every day, i.e. the whole process of shopping, without specifying its particular stage.

Originally Posted by Ryan91

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

]BTW, what's the correct word for that safe cell, or box in English?

I think the word you're looking for is 'locker.'

Thank you, I saw this word several times, but I could not recollect it.

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

OK, the meaning would be something like this:
"Every day I enter a shop, buy bread and milk"

Or "Every day I come in the shop..."

One more example, I think it's even better:

Я каждый день ХОЖУ в магазин: сначала я выхожу из дома, потом иду по улице, потом подхожу к магазину, потом ВХОЖУ в магазин, после этого я покупаю продукты, затем выхожу из магазина, снова иду по улице, возвращаюсь домой.

Every day I go to a shop: first I leave my home, then I walk along the street, then I approach the shop, then i enter the shop, after that I buy food, then I leave the shop, walk along the street again, and return home.

I think I understand now. The SVM encompasses the whole journey, whereas the prefixed verb deals with one moment of the journey at which some sort of transition (e.g. opening the door and walking into the shop) takes place. Is that right?

Can someone please explain the use of aspect in the infinitive? If a conjugated verb is in the perfective, can I assume that any infintives relating to it afterwards will be perfective aswell? Does it work the other way also?

Я захочил купить книгу
Я забыл сделать работy

Спасибо за помощь

Джек

Originally Posted by Ryan91

I think I understand now. The SVM encompasses the whole journey, whereas the prefixed verb deals with one moment of the journey at which some sort of transition (e.g. opening the door and walking into the shop) takes place. Is that right?

No. It's better to think of it this way at first:

ходить = "to go"
входить = "to enter"

Я каждый день хожу в магазин за молоком.
Every day I go to the store to buy milk.

Когда я вхожу в магазин, продавец всегда здоровается со мной.
When I enter the store, the salesman always greets me.

Originally Posted by JackBoni

Я захотел купить книгу

Originally Posted by doninphxaz

Originally Posted by Ryan91

I think I understand now. The SVM encompasses the whole journey, whereas the prefixed verb deals with one moment of the journey at which some sort of transition (e.g. opening the door and walking into the shop) takes place. Is that right?

No. It's better to think of it this way at first:

ходить = "to go"
входить = "to enter"

Я каждый день хожу в магазин за молоком.
Every day I go to the store to buy milk.

Когда я вхожу в магазин, продавец всегда здоровается со мной.
When I enter the store, the salesman always greets me.

I would say both of you are right. You are talking about the same thing, there is no contradiction!
Ryan just provided a general theoretical explanation, and it makes sense indeed!

Originally Posted by JackBoni

Can someone please explain the use of aspect in the infinitive? If a conjugated verb is in the perfective, can I assume that any infintives relating to it afterwards will be perfective aswell? Does it work the other way also?

Я захотел купить книгу
Я забыл сделать работy

Спасибо за помощь

Джек

Not always.

Я захотел спать.

It depends on a specific verb, I think.

Я забыл + imperfective = unnatural, should be забыл сделать smth.
Устал + perfective = unnatural, should be устал делать smth.
Я захотел + imperfective = OK (спать, есть, пить...)
Я захотел + perfective = OK (поесть, поспать, попить, купить, сказать) - that depends on a situation:
Я захотел читать = I wanted (suddenly) to read - in a general sense;
Я захотел прочитать книгу - I wanted (suddenly) to have the book read, i.e. to know its contents.

I cannot say is there any common rule, that's a difficult question. I'll have to think...

I have been thinking about any possible rules, and I can only come up with this one, although I'm still not sure it works all the time:

Any verbs in the infinitive (or otherwise?) that come in a subordinate clause (after чтобы and потому что) are imperfective. I'm not sure though.

Я иду в библиотеку, чтобы заказать (reserve?) книгу. - (У меня здесь нет словаря, потому что я в школе)

Я изучаю русский язык, потому что я хочу его быучить в университете.

Спасибо за помощь
Джек