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Thread: Past passive participle

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    Past passive participle

    Here is а question on this matter.
    Appearing
    ё for e. Повернýть -> повёрнутый, повернута (short form), ( and in verbs like развернýть), that I suppose stressed повéрнута. In the dictionary it presents as a rule in verbs like these, but my problem is why appears this ё not being in its stem nor in past; just obviously in present 2nd person sing. I have no explanation for it, save of course: Roma locuta est, causa finita . Thank you.

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    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    it appears to combine the traits of both (c) and (d) types from the list Passive Participles | Russian language grammar on RussianLearn.com

    since there're tons of exceptions from the rule in Russian this could be one of them

    then i believe the rules were defined in hindsight to put the language in a kind of logical framework, but since the language itself didn't develop according to any set of strict rules or strict logic, exceptions occur and more often in a such complex language as Russian

    also the -ут of the infinitive isn't dropped in the participle

    another one is подчеркнуть - подчеркнул - подчёркнутый

    it also may be related to consonants junction -веРН- and -чеРКН-


    another idea is to check whether imperfect infinitive of this verb can receive ё

    подчеркнуть - подчёркивать - fits

    повернуть - поворачивать - seemingly doesn't fit, but there's a folk form повёртывать, which is admittedly rare and doesn't go with every prefix

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    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Повернýть -> повёрнутый, повёрнута

    I think it is connected in some way with stress migration, which in its turn connected with word length.

    Remember that ё in Russian is always stressed.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

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    Thanks, LXNDR and it-ogo, for your help. I'll study your answers carefully.

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    "it appears to combine the traits of both (c) and (d) types from the list Passive Participles | Russian language grammar on RussianLearn.com"
    This link is very very usefull. I translate it and put in my folder on verbs. Thank you.

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    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    here's another one

    застегнуть - застёгивать - застёгнутый


    i think i figured a tentative rule for these verbs, not sure if it's any philological revelation though

    this pattern applies to verbs with -нуть ending in perfect infinitive form where -н- is not the part of the stem
    it's rather not clear cut (like in the case of согнуть) but generally it's true

    sometimes instead of -ё- the participle receives -о- which is a similar sound, only in this case you can't rely on the verb's imperfect infinitive form for guidance

    взболтнуть - взбалтывать - взболтанный (not взболтнутый however)
    проткнуть - протыкать - проткнутый (not a literary word, but grammatically correct)

    suffix -нуть signifies a momentary action and many verbs can receive it
    Last edited by LXNDR; May 8th, 2012 at 08:00 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by radomir View Post
    Here is а question on this matter.
    Appearing
    ё for e. Повернýть -> повёрнутый, повернута (short form), ( and in verbs like развернýть), that I suppose stressed повéрнута. In the dictionary it presents as a rule in verbs like these, but my problem is why appears this ё not being in its stem nor in past; just obviously in present 2nd person sing. I have no explanation for it, save of course: Roma locuta est, causa finita . Thank you.
    1. повёрнута
    2. For the purpose of learning Russian as a foreign language I would recommend to consider it the other way around. It could make more sense if you just consider ё as the default vowel in this verb and memorize it as "повёрнуть". Yes, there is no such a word in Russian. But the only thing you need is to apply the rule: ё is always replaced by е when it is not stressed (both in spelling and in pronunciation).
    So, you get: повернуть - я повернул - повёрнутый; развернуть - я развернул - развёрнутый - развёртка; отвернуть - я отвернул - отвёрнутый - отвёртка, завернуть - завёрнут, свернуть - свёрнут etc. I cannot think of a single word (not only a verb, but a noun as well) with "вёрн/вёрт" root where it is pronounced with е in a stressed position.
    3. Unfortunately, the most of printed text in Russian fail to distinguish ё and е in spelling. You cannot do anything with that, it's just a tradition (ё is not considered mandatory by most of people).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман View Post
    Unfortunately, the most of printed text in Russian fail to distinguish ё and е in spelling. You cannot do anything with that, it's just a tradition (ё is not considered mandatory by most of people).
    I have a conspiracy theory
    It was done to make it harder for foreigners to learn Russian
    Just joking

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    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    i think the vowel Ё is too obscene, that's why

    but yeah, i overlooked the simple detail Боб Уайтман pointed out, if there's -e- in the stem of the -нуть verb, it will transform into -ё- in the participle which will receive stress as it-ogo suggested

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    Завсегдатай chaika's Avatar
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    there are all kinds of words where e is really a hidden o but you don't know it until stress reveals it.

    село жена зерно имя (!) стекло

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    Quote Originally Posted by LXNDR View Post
    i think the vowel Ё is too obscene, that's why
    I think it's much simpler - letter ё located awfully inconvenient on a standard qwerty keyboard (on the "~" key), people just skip it because it is too inconvenient to type

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    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doomer View Post
    I think it's much simpler - letter ё located awfully inconvenient on a standard qwerty keyboard (on the "~" key), people just skip it because it is too inconvenient to type
    i kinda agree, consciously i never skip ё but sometimes when i type quickly i find myself having typed е instead and get upset lol

    but that doesn't explain why they replace it with e in print

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    Quote Originally Posted by LXNDR View Post
    but that doesn't explain why they replace it with e in print
    You think originals come from different keyboards?

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    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doomer View Post
    You think originals come from different keyboards?
    from different keyboardists

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