Thread: why so much accusative?

This a verse from a song, in the second line, i can't tell if её is accusative, or genitive? and, as you will read... i have some other questions that could use answeres. thanks.

Один мой друг некрасивый завёл себе подругу
Толстую и страшную … её подругу.
Каждый день он приходит вместе с ней, типо, в гости,
Стрижет на кухне ногти, курит злые папиросы.
Она ворует пудру из спальни моей мамы.
Сожрали, гады, чипсы, хрипели на диване.
Знакомая кассета на весь район долбасит,
Лечили пивом кошку, ну, а меня колбасит.

One of my ugly friends got himself a girlfriend
fat and terrible ... her the girlfriend (why is её in there? is the genitive, or accusative?)
Everyday he comes, together with her (what does типо mean?) on a visit,
(Cuts on kitchen nails?) smoked evil cigarettes.(what is the diffrence between папиросы, and сигареты?)
she theifs powder (makeup, maybe?) from my mom's bedroom.
they gobbled, (lizards????), chips, and (something on the couch)
(Familiar casset?) on all area (what is долбасит)
they treated the cat using beer, well, i am so angrrryy.
????

(what is the diffrence between папиросы, and сигареты?)

I think that сигареты refers to Western-style filtered cigarettes - Malboro etc - whereas папиросы are your untipped cheap variety. That would explain злые папиросы.

I'm very willing to stand corrected.

Originally Posted by joysof

(what is the diffrence between папиросы, and сигареты?)

I think that сигареты refers to Western-style filtered cigarettes - Malboro etc - whereas папиросы are your untipped cheap variety. That would explain злые папиросы.

I'm very willing to stand corrected.

Untipped cigarettes stay cigarettes in Russian. To qualify for a "папироса", the thing must be thick, 1.5-2 times thicker than a normal cigarette, and it must consist of two parts. The frontal part contains the tobacco, the rear part is made of thicker paper and is hollow; apparently the idea is to cool the smoke when you inhale, and to utilize the tobacco entirely without burning your lips. The anatomy: a hollow cylinder of thick paper; a longer cylinder made of very fine paper (finer than in most cigarettes); the longer cylinder slides onto the shorter cylinder, so that their ends coincide at the back, and the room left in the longer cylinder at the front is filled with tobacco. The tobacco is normally quite coarse, so a злая папироса must be real something.

One important use of these things is to make joints: you remove the tobacco, then slide the fine paper forward so that it makes for bigger stuffing room, then you stuff with whatever you have. When the fine paper is moved to the extreme, it makes for an enormous joint; one such thing is called "першинг", apparently implying both the size and the (devastating) effect.

And people wonder why the life expectancy of Russian men is the same as it was 150 years ago...

Originally Posted by joysof

And people wonder why the life expectancy of Russian men is the same as it was 150 years ago...

I have a friend, he's Austrian, and he smokes unfiltered Camel. Averaging two packs a day. He told me that he found the Russian stuff mentioned above quite mild compared to his stuff. Wanna say anything about the life expectancy of Austrian men or anybody who smokes that stuff? Or those guys in France who seem to smoke even when asleep? Really, you're chasing the wrong tail here.

I have a friend, he's Austrian, and he smokes unfiltered Camel.

That's what we call anecdotal evidence. Russian men die in huge numbers of cardiac/respiratory conditions caused or exacerbated by both heavy smoking and heavy drinking.

I would never pretend that папиросы alone were to blame. Can't help, though.

Originally Posted by joysof

I have a friend, he's Austrian, and he smokes unfiltered Camel.

That's what we call anecdotal evidence.

Correct. So is blaming smoking and drinking. The Russians often say that about everybody who has died ate cucumbers, so ban cucumbers.

Russian men die in huge numbers of cardiac/respiratory conditions caused or exacerbated by both heavy smoking and heavy drinking.

Exacerbated it might be. But hardly caused. They die in huge numbers because of the defunct health care, defunct because nobody has money to pay for insurance, nevermind for treatment (except very few, who can and do buy themselves good health care). The same poverty leads to a very low level life style, which is what causes all those nasty conditions. Alcohol and tobacco are quite insignificant here; I'm fairly certain that the French drink and smoke hardly any less than the Russians.

I would never pretend that папиросы alone were to blame. Can't help, though.

Oh. Then I misunderstood. Be aware anyway that those папиросы hardly do more harm than any other tobacco produce. Including the "light" "low-tar" stuff (which is the ultimate in BS, frankly).

Originally Posted by Dogboy182

This a verse from a song, in the second line, i can't tell if её is accusative, or genitive?

I guess,
'... её подругу' is a euphemized curse here
'ёё' is actually the genitive and it is referred to the omitted word ...

типа - like, you know, kinda, sorta

'злые' is probably like 'severe'

гады - skunks, rascals, scoundrels

хрипели - were wheezing

кассета - (sound)track

весь район долбасит - music is playing so loud, rocking the entire neighbourhood

Originally Posted by losh

'... её подругу' is a euphemized curse here
'ёё' is actually the genitive and it is referred to the omitted word ...

heh, thought so. but what is the cuss word? can you PM me? or at least write it in russian, so only like, half of the people will be offended . i don't think i will get it by myself.

Alcohol and tobacco are quite insignificant here; I'm fairly certain that the French drink and smoke hardly any less than the Russians.

If you feel you can trust the Russian media, look at

http://english.pravda.ru/economics/2001/06/08/7257.html

with its (faintly illiterate) headline 'RUSSIA IS ONE OF THE TOBACCO MOST SMOKING COUNTRIES'.

Then you could look at http://www.rosbaltnews.com/2003/10/08/64319.html

with its banner 'Proportion of Smoking-Related Deaths Among Russian Men Is Worst in Europe'.

If you want something a little more international, read the 'Russia' case study at http://www.essentialaction.org/country.html

A choice quote reads: 'Russia is the fourth largest cigarette market in the world, and one of the fastest-growing. Approximately two-thirds of Russian men and almost one-third of Russian women smoke, consuming close to 300 billion cigarettes a year...Between 1985 and 1992, reported cases of lung cancer in Russia increased by 22 percent.31 By the year 2020, the WHO says, tobacco use will account for 22 percent of all deaths in Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union. Currently, tobacco causes about 360,000 deaths per year in Russia, or 28 percent of all male deaths and 3 percent of all female deaths.'

The dreadful public healthcare system doesn't do them any good, I grant you and I admit that I can find no stats to say that papirosy are any more harmful than Malboros. Perhaps you could concede that you were off the mark as well?

As for alcohol, try http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/7208-12.cfm

The WHO's global alcohol database makes interesting reading, too. The French may drink slightly more than the Russians in terms of litres per capita, but compare spirit consumption, and you'll see that the Russians have a near monopoly on the lethal stuff.


I think this constitutes going off topic. Sorry, but I felt the point was important.

yea, thanks just go and get it locked up! And i still have more questions!

but, if this adds any weight to anyones argument... not every kid at my school is, say, addicted to ciggaretes. But, no russian will ever pass up the oportunity to smoke one!

Originally Posted by joysof

Alcohol and tobacco are quite insignificant here; I'm fairly certain that the French drink and smoke hardly any less than the Russians.

If you feel you can trust the Russian media, look at

http://english.pravda.ru/economics/2001/06/08/7257.html

Trust Pravda?

Then you could look at http://www.rosbaltnews.com/2003/10/08/64319.html

with its banner 'Proportion of Smoking-Related Deaths Among Russian Men Is Worst in Europe'.

That's better, but the critical bit here is that elsewhere in Europe any smoking-caused disease is being dealt with (even by compelling the patient to quit smoking, even if by threatening with higher insurance costs). In Russia the same disease progresses freely and eventually kills.

If you want something a little more international, read the 'Russia' case study at http://www.essentialaction.org/country.html

A choice quote reads: 'Russia is the fourth largest cigarette market in the world, and one of the fastest-growing. Approximately two-thirds of Russian men and almost one-third of Russian women smoke, consuming close to 300 billion cigarettes a year...Between 1985 and 1992, reported cases of lung cancer in Russia increased by 22 percent.31 By the year 2020, the WHO says, tobacco use will account for 22 percent of all deaths in Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union. Currently, tobacco causes about 360,000 deaths per year in Russia, or 28 percent of all male deaths and 3 percent of all female deaths.'

Fourth largest market it might be, but that's meaningless. The population of Russia is ~150 million, so if half the population smokes, that makes ~75 million, which is more than the entire population in France (~60 million at 1999).

The dreadful public healthcare system doesn't do them any good, I grant you and I admit that I can find no stats to say that papirosy are any more harmful than Malboros. Perhaps you could concede that you were off the mark as well?

I can admit that perhaps smoking is more than insignificant. I still do not believe it is a major factor, especially if we're to compare Russia to only Eurasian countries. Personally, I believe smoking is sheer idiocy. It does not even get you high

As for alcohol, try http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/7208-12.cfm

Well, I did not want to discuss alcohol. But if you must... I strongly believe that the Russians drink strong spirits because it is simply more economical. For example, you can buy a 0.5 liter bottle of cheap vodka for as little as 60 rubles (~$2), any wine is more expensive than that, and a 0.5 bottle of cheap beer is no less than 10 rubles. So far it does not look very economical, 6 bottles of beer will have much the same effect as will one bottle of vodka, right? Yes, unless you buy smuggled vodka, which can be as low as 30-40 rubles. Then it figures. What will a person who counts every ruble buy? This is another effect of the extreme poverty of many Russians. I do not think that any Russian who earns some decent money is ever going to buy cheap stuff в ларьке за углом, only to be poisoned and die horribly, because the spirit in the vodka was methanol. Poverty is a catch-all in Russia, any sociological study that ignores it is meaningless.

I strongly believe that the Russians drink strong spirits because it is simply more economical. For example, you can buy a 0.5 liter bottle of cheap vodka for as little as 60 rubles (~$2), any wine is more expensive than that, and a 0.5 bottle of cheap beer is no less than 10 rubles.

What I find odd about the Russian psyche as opposed to that of, say, the French is this notion that lots of cheap alcohol is necessarily better than smaller quantities of decent stuff.

Drinking vodka is like taking medicine. I'll take a $10 Semillon Blanc over a gallon of Russian Standard.

Sure, they're poor, by and large. So is Sudan, but there they tend to die of gunshot wounds rather than cirrhosis of the liver. Poverty manifests itself differently according to a nation's tendencies. That was really the point I was making.

What I find odd about the Russian psyche as opposed to that of, say, the French is this notion that lots of cheap alcohol is necessarily better than smaller quantities of decent stuff.

I guess you have never seen any French in your life. Or probably you saw some export variant of them. I live surround by Frenchmen (thank God not quite in France though) and let me assure you, they drink lots of cheapo (by their standard) stuff. They would love to have cheaper stuff, they just can't. And don't even get me started on what the Brits do. I mean the real blood and guts see-you-in-the-pub Brits, not some phonies.

Drinking vodka is like taking medicine. I'll take a $10 Semillon Blanc over a gallon of Russian Standard.

$10 is nothing for you. For quite a few Russians that sum is expressed in tens of percents of their monthly income. They would not buy Russian Standard (which is way overpriced by the Russian standard) either. They would buy a 0.5L smuggled vodka and would hope it was made with industrial, not wood, alcohol.

Your example with Sudan does not cut it, they are essentially savages who were given sub-machine guns. More developed nations, when they experience a crisis, drink alcohol or take drugs (the latter is the standard lifestyle in many Asiatic countries). I know of no exceptions. Why do you think there was the Prohibition in the US in 1930's?

Originally Posted by bad manners

Originally Posted by joysof

Alcohol and tobacco are quite insignificant here; I'm fairly certain that the French drink and smoke hardly any less than the Russians.

If you feel you can trust the Russian media, look at

http://english.pravda.ru/economics/2001/06/08/7257.html

Trust Pravda?

Yeah, I know that I totally try to avoid the the San Francisco Chronicle or the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, what with them having the legacy of William Randall Hearst and all.

If I remember my media scandals correctly, I believe the pravda.ru website isn't even related to the Soviet-era newspaper. And even the paper that inherited the Pravda name is a new incarnation.

Just to throw in my two cents: The tobacco and alcohol problems in Russian society are only a symptom of the real problem - poverty. When you look closely at American society, most of us are rich and have good, easy lives, so drinking is a social habit and smoking is bad. But when you get away from the posh western front, you can see that our poorer population smokes and drinks as much as the next country.

The real problem isn't the alcohol or tobacco, it's the standard of living.

I guess you have never seen any French in your life.

My mother is French.

And don't even get me started on what the Brits do. I mean the real blood and guts see-you-in-the-pub Brits, not some phonies.

I am British, and - I'll grant you - we are the worst in the world for the grab-you-round-the-throat variety of binge-drinking. But British men drink lager, which makes them fat (and angry) but doesn't tend to kill them. English breakfasts and Sunday league football see to that .

$10 is nothing for you. For quite a few Russians that sum is expressed in tens of percents of their monthly income.

Whatever the cost, I am simply uncomfortable with the idea of drinking to get drunk. Wine, bourbon, beer all feel good as they go down. Vodka is wince-inducing. Is it all about escaping the everyday drudge?

Your example with Sudan does not cut it, they are essentially savages who were given sub-machine guns.

Who is 'they'? Africans?

Originally Posted by emka71aln

Just to throw in my two cents: The tobacco and alcohol problems in Russian society are only a symptom of the real problem - poverty. When you look closely at American society, most of us are rich and have good, easy lives, so drinking is a social habit and smoking is bad. But when you get away from the posh western front, you can see that our poorer population smokes and drinks as much as the next country.

The real problem isn't the alcohol or tobacco, it's the standard of living.

Yeah, I sure don't know any wealthy American alcoholics or smokers!

(Actually, I do. That was sarcasm.)

Originally Posted by joysof

I guess you have never seen any French in your life.

My mother is French.

That does not get you closer to the French suburbia. And I think it was you who first invoked the argument of "anecdotic evidence". See, it fires back now.

I am British, and - I'll grant you - we are the worst in the world for the grab-you-round-the-throat variety of binge-drinking. But British men drink lager, which makes them fat (and angry) but doesn't tend to kill them.

Oh, on the defensive side now. You forgot to mention Scotch, Irish whiskey and so on. That's speaking of the stuff that resembles medicine. I'll demonstrate my politeness, for a change, and will not portray the British that I personally know who will drink anything that burns.

Whatever the cost, I am simply uncomfortable with the idea of drinking to get drunk.

Neither do I. But see above and don't say that five rounds of double bourbon are taken only because it tastes good.

Wine, bourbon, beer all feel good as they go down. Vodka is wince-inducing.

You would not believe, but the guys who like vodka would tell you the opposite. They would say it feels incredibly good when it goes down, especially at round number four or something. Whereas they would probably threw up at the second bourbon. Actually, most Russians believe that your 10-years-in-burned-oak-barrel stuff is a poor man's vodka, made by somebody who hasn't enough intelligence or skill to distillate it decently and so the activated carbon (charred oak) must be used to remove the products of the thermal cracking which happens when the mash is in the pot-still. They would maintain that even that is done awkwardly, because pure activated carbon would do the task much better, whereas the actual produce still has a strong reek and taste of the cheap homemade stuff (aka самогон), and sensation of something gooey and oaken.

I've written the above to demonstrate that tastes are personal and cultural. I for one hate almost all beers except the very heavy stouts, and drink no other tea than Darjeeling (no milk or sugar, thank you very much). Whereas most Americans would barf even at a thought of consuming these. On the other hand, I cannot digest Coca-Cola. Et cetera et cetera.

[quote:1gnl2g1f]Your example with Sudan does not cut it, they are essentially savages who were given sub-machine guns.

Who is 'they'? Africans?[/quote:1gnl2g1f]

I don't care about whoever there is in Sudan. I'd like to see your explanation of the Prohibition instead.

That does not get you closer to the French suburbia. And I think it was you who first invoked the argument of "anecdotic evidence". See, it fires back now.

Two things.

First thing: one of the consequence of having a French parent is that I have spent the last fifteen summers or so in lovely Languedoc-Roussillon. And, yes, in my experience, the French down their booze in quite a restrained fashion.

Second thing: though I hate to resort to ''anecdotal evidence'' (I'm not a pedant, but I know you are ), it was you who steered the subject round to personal experience.

Oh, on the defensive side now. You forgot to mention Scotch, Irish whiskey and so on. That's speaking of the stuff that resembles medicine. I'll demonstrate my politeness, for a change, and will not portray the British that I personally know who will drink anything that burns.

Less defensive than despairing. Scotch can be lovely, though.

This was never an anti-Russian thing. Give me old Rus' over new Britain any day. But as you say yourself, people are different.

I don't care about whoever there is in Sudan. I'd like to see your explanation of the Prohibition instead.

Not sure what you want me to explain. I am quite interested in the whole 'africans=savages?' polemic, though. I thought you specialised in empathy with the poverty-stricken?