Thread: Ukrainian language similair to Russian?

Originally Posted by Lampada

"+100" откуда взялось? У каждого одно мнение, так что это "+1".

Хотел написать "+ стопицот" но засомневался что не носители не поймут. Ок, считай что это в процентах.

Originally Posted by TATY

I know these words exist

Yeah, that's all you know. Thing is, not only do these words exist, but they are also used by us and, unfortunately for you, not in the meanings and contexts that you think they are used in. Mwa-ha-ha-ha.

In fact it only supports my arguement, by showing how OLD roots are preserved in Russian in places, but newer words have replaced them in most cases.

So far all the examples have been incorrect because you've misrepresented the Russian usage.

The fact is, Ukrainian is a LANGUAGE, it's not a dialect of Russian.

And no one says it is. Ukranian, Russian and Belorussian are dialects of one common language of our common forefathers.

Dialects are mutually intelligle.

That's what you think, linguists beg to differ. Take Chinese dialects or Bavarian and Plattdeutsch, etc. Take some of our Russian dialects - my native dialect from rural North-Western Russia and that of the town of Kursk - you wouldn't understand sh*t if I greeted you in my native dialect - такамо запрано на ыкшамло - what did I just say? It's not intelligible to those not familiar with this dialect, yet it's not different enough to be considered a different language, it's still Russian. I could go on, but it is clear that you're talking through your hat.

If a Ukrainian who has never been taught Russian, and a Russian who knows no Ukrainian have a conversation, they won't be able to fully understand each other. Yes bits will be understandable. In writing it is a lot easier to understand. But there will still be words, phrases that render most of the sentences non-intelligle.

I personally witnessed an American TV presenter interviewing a bunch of fishermen from a Scottish village - he had absolutely no clue what they were saying to him yet it was English.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

I personally witnessed an American TV presenter interviewing a bunch of fishermen from a Scottish village - he had absolutely no clue what they were saying to him yet it was English.

Really? And those people teach us dont pick in ours noses?

Originally Posted by TATY

[Moskali. Yes.

And there are plenty more.

Originally Posted by JJ

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

I personally witnessed an American TV presenter interviewing a bunch of fishermen from a Scottish village - he had absolutely no clue what they were saying to him yet it was English.

Really? And those people teach us dont pick in ours noses?

Yes, JJ, they've got a nerve. Thing is, rural Scots can be very different from General American and the Holywood version of "Scots" they speak in Braveheart.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

And no one says it is. Ukranian, Russian and Belorussian are dialects of one common language of our common forefathers.

Well, in the same way French, Spanish, Romanian and Italian are dialects of Latin, perhaps so.

Originally Posted by Lampada

"+100" откуда взялось? У каждого одно мнение, так что это "+1".

+1 -- это не мнение, а плюсик в репутацию адресату.

Originally Posted by laxxy

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

And no one says it is. Ukranian, Russian and Belorussian are dialects of one common language of our common forefathers.

Well, in the same way French, Spanish, Romanian and Italian are dialects of Latin, perhaps so.

Speakers of Romanian will not understand speakers of Spanish. With Russian and Ukranian it's a different story - I watch movies dubbed into Ukranian and I can easily follow most of the conversations (I fail to understand only about 5%).

Originally Posted by Vincent Tailors

Originally Posted by Lampada

"+100" откуда взялось? У каждого одно мнение, так что это "+1".

+1 -- это не мнение, а плюсик в репутацию адресату.

Ну вообще-то где как. Многие употребляют это именно как "+ 1 мнение". Например, на этом форуме.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Originally Posted by laxxy

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

And no one says it is. Ukranian, Russian and Belorussian are dialects of one common language of our common forefathers.

Well, in the same way French, Spanish, Romanian and Italian are dialects of Latin, perhaps so.

Speakers of Romanian will not understand speakers of Spanish. With Russian and Ukranian it's a different story - I watch movies dubbed into Ukranian and I can easily follow most of the conversations (I fail to understand only about 5%).

It depends on the content -- e.g. most Russians who have never lived in Ukraine have trouble understanding Ukrainian news on TV. On the person too -- e.g. written Polish has always been 95% transparent to me (and spoken Polish too, after a little adjustment) just because I speak Russian and Ukranian. But there are people who speak both languages and can not read Polish. And of course on the variety of Ukrainian spoken.

But there are many languages that are mutually intelligible, and many dialects that are not (although it does seem that the tendency now is towards calling them languages too in that case, e.g. you don't see many people referring to Cantonese as a dialect any more).

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Originally Posted by laxxy

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

And no one says it is. Ukranian, Russian and Belorussian are dialects of one common language of our common forefathers.

Well, in the same way French, Spanish, Romanian and Italian are dialects of Latin, perhaps so.

Speakers of Romanian will not understand speakers of Spanish. With Russian and Ukranian it's a different story - I watch movies dubbed into Ukranian and I can easily follow most of the conversations (I fail to understand only about 5%).

I contend that e.g. people in Moscow speak completely different language than in St. Petersburg. It's enough to take several pairs of words to proof this statement:

подъезд(Mos) - парадное(SPb) - entrance(Eng)
бордюр(Mos) - поребрик(SPb) - border(Eng)
бычок(Mos) - хабарик(SPb) - cigarette-butt(Eng)
жулик(Mos) - мазурик(SPb) - swindler(Eng)
личинка (часть замка)(Mos) - секретка(SPb) - cylinder lock(Eng)
проездной(Mos) - карточка(SPb) - season ticket(Eng)
палатка(Mos) - ларёк(SPb) - stall(Eng)
тротуар(Mos) - панель(SPb) - pavement(Eng)
конечная(Mos) - кольцо(SPb) - terminus(Eng)
ластик(Mos) - резинка(SPb) - eraser(Eng)
батон(Mos) - булка(SPb) - bread stick(Eng)
водолазка(Mos) - бодлон(SPb) - polo-neck(Eng)
etc...

You can see now how is it little in common between SPb and Moscow languages. And I'am sure that nobody will dare to dispute this evident fact...

Originally Posted by laxxy

It depends on the content -- e.g. most Russians who have never lived in Ukraine have trouble understanding Ukrainian news on TV. On the person too -- e.g. written Polish has always been 95% transparent to me (and spoken Polish too, after a little adjustment) just because I speak Russian and Ukranian. But there are people who speak both languages and can not read Polish. And of course on the variety of Ukrainian spoken.

it's a common misbelief here in Poland that they would understand all of the Slavonic languages: Russian, Czech, Ukrainian and what not. Once they are confronted though, they change their mind quicker than one would think

As for considering Ukrainian language as a dialect of Russian, thinking by this token, each and every single language would be a dialect of the other after all, they all derived from mixing different languages together due to some historical background, eg being under the influence of Germans/English/Russians or any other nation.

Originally Posted by kamka

Originally Posted by laxxy

It depends on the content -- e.g. most Russians who have never lived in Ukraine have trouble understanding Ukrainian news on TV. On the person too -- e.g. written Polish has always been 95% transparent to me (and spoken Polish too, after a little adjustment) just because I speak Russian and Ukranian. But there are people who speak both languages and can not read Polish. And of course on the variety of Ukrainian spoken.

it's a common misbelief here in Poland that they would understand all of the Slavonic languages: Russian, Czech, Ukrainian and what not. Once they are confronted though, they change their mind quicker than one would think

True. I think if I knew only one language -- Russian, or Polish, or Ukrainian, it would be a lot harder to understand the others; but once you know two you can really see through a lot of words, not 100%, but a lot. In written materials, of course, speech is quite another matter.
Slovak seems to be the one language that is closest to the center of the distribution though: Ukrainians, Poles and Czechs all (mostly) consider it quite transparent -- much unlike the other two languages

As for considering Ukrainian language as a dialect of Russian, thinking by this token, each and every single language would be a dialect of the other after all, they all derived from mixing different languages together due to some historical background, eg being under the influence of Germans/English/Russians or any other nation.

yes.

Originally Posted by Guin

I contend that e.g. people in Moscow speak completely different language than in St. Petersburg. It's enough to take several pairs of words to proof this statement:

подъезд(Mos) - парадное(SPb) - entrance(Eng)
бордюр(Mos) - поребрик(SPb) - border(Eng)
бычок(Mos) - хабарик(SPb) - cigarette-butt(Eng)
жулик(Mos) - мазурик(SPb) - swindler(Eng)
личинка (часть замка)(Mos) - секретка(SPb) - cylinder lock(Eng)
проездной(Mos) - карточка(SPb) - season ticket(Eng)
палатка(Mos) - ларёк(SPb) - stall(Eng)
тротуар(Mos) - панель(SPb) - pavement(Eng)
конечная(Mos) - кольцо(SPb) - terminus(Eng)
ластик(Mos) - резинка(SPb) - eraser(Eng)
батон(Mos) - булка(SPb) - bread stick(Eng)
водолазка(Mos) - бодлон(SPb) - polo-neck(Eng)
etc...

Мне всегда казалось, что это всё немного преувеличено... Я какое-то время жила в Питере и сама говорила, и от окружающих слышала подъезд, бычок, проездной (карточка звучит дико!), тротуар, конечная... Единственное, что правда - это "булка" вместо "батон" (так там называют вообще любой белый хлеб). А "ларёк", по-моему, и в Москве говорят.

Actually, one of the most unique things about modern Russian imo is the lack of dialectal variation. Of course there is some, but compared to many other languages -- such as English, German, Japanese, Chinese, even Spanish -- it is nothing. Which is even more surprising given the size of the country.

Might be a result of the constructed nature of the literary language and the fact that the direction of its' spread was from higher classes to lower and from cities into the villages. Maybe also of the centralized nature of education (and society in general), where speaking one's dialect was considered low class. I am speculating here, of course.

Originally Posted by laxxy

Actually, one of the most unique things about modern Russian imo is the lack of dialectal variation. Of course there is some, but compared to many other languages -- such as English, German, Japanese, Chinese, even Spanish -- it is nothing. Which is even more surprising given the size of the country.

Might be a result of the constructed nature of the literary language and the fact that the direction of its' spread was from higher classes to lower and from cities into the villages. Maybe also of the centralized nature of education (and society in general), where speaking one's dialect was considered low class. I am speculating here, of course.

You have to consider isolation, Russia is a big block in which Russian has probably settled much later than other languages did in other parts of the world while the other languages are spreaded around the world for some more centuries... Spanish is found in other parts of the world besides the enormous block it represents in America but it is understood by any or almost any Spanish speaker and here the Real Academia Espa

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Russian: мястечко (=small town)

Увы, в русский язык это слово пришло всвязи присоединением белорусских и украинских земель. Так что это в русском языке белоруссизм/полонизм. Вы где-нибудь в Сибири или на севере "местечко" видели?

Originally Posted by Оля

Мне всегда казалось, что это всё немного преувеличено... Я какое-то время жила в Питере и сама говорила, и от окружающих слышала подъезд, бычок, проездной (карточка звучит дико!), тротуар, конечная... Единственное, что правда - это "булка" вместо "батон" (так там называют вообще любой белый хлеб). А "ларёк", по-моему, и в Москве говорят.

Вероятно это еще зависит от вашего круга общения. В речи старших отличия более заметны. У молодежи все сглаживает телевизор, да и интернет теперь.
"Карточки", "проездные карточки" мне резанули слух и я слышал это повсеместно. Давно это было, наверно еще в конце 80-х/начале 90-х.

Моя бабушка уехала из Питера в эвакуацию, но я всё время от нее слышал "булка"

Тетка в Питере говорит "парадное". В детстве не сразу въехал. Да и поребрик, тоже слышал с детства, наверно от бабушки.

Originally Posted by Wowik

Вы где-нибудь в Сибири или на севере "местечко" видели?

Не только видел я местечко "на севере", я еще и сам оттуда . У нас маленький город - это именно "мЯстеТко" (произносим со звуком "я" и такой вот как бы средний между "ч" и "т" звук).