Thread: the reality of Russia?

Originally Posted by Remyisme

А я бы наоборот сказала что Москва это очень даже Россия. Какая же Россия без Москвы.

I second that, well said.

He's exaggerating, or was very poor here. Had a bad life. Actually, standard of living here is lower than in the USA, no doubt, but not that much to cause hatred or something...

Originally Posted by Amaranta

I can't accept that someone could condemn their country so easily, especially when they left it

That's exactly the reason. People who left Russia for good in order to live ordinary life working at McDonalds or smthing of that kind won't say anything good about their former homeland.

I think such people just try to justify the decision, justify their hopes and intentions. They expected to see paradise but bumped into cruel reality. They don't want to look like fools and do throw mud at their past.

Originally Posted by Vincent Tailors

I think such people just try to justify the decision, justify their hopes and intentions. They expected to see paradise but bumped into cruel reality. They don't want to look like fools and do throw mud at their past.

That's not the reason for such sentiments. The reason is usually they hate to remember how sh|tty they were treated back in their own country. Now, why that happened is another story.

Originally Posted by adoc

Originally Posted by Vincent Tailors

I think such people just try to justify the decision, justify their hopes and intentions. They expected to see paradise but bumped into cruel reality. They don't want to look like fools and do throw mud at their past.

That's not the reason for such sentiments. The reason is usually they hate to remember how sh|tty they were treated back in their own country. Now, why that happened is another story.

he he he

Originally Posted by Vincent Tailors

He's exaggerating, or was very poor here. Had a bad life. Actually, standard of living here is lower than in the USA, no doubt, but not that much to cause hatred or something...

I agree with this. I also think of it with other examples.

Say you lived in the Bronx and grew up with a particularly bad childhood, living in a rough neighbourhood. You move out of the area as soon as you can and years later you befriend someone who's always wanted to go there and is intent on doing so. You're going to wonder why the hell they'd want to go to a place that treated you rough. And maybe, you think the person just sees the light of it, all the culture, the want to visit the tourist attractions or whatever and think they are oblivious of all the crap you experienced.


I've lived in the UK all my life and I personally hate the place (however, I do appreciate I live in a safe part of the country, the weather isn't dangerous, and there's political stability compared to some countries etc.)
But when I hear people saying they would do anything to live here I just think why would you want to do that? Especially, as another example, the influx of Americans who, when those Harry Potter movies came out, saw this country as some magic land or whatever, I suppose that's an example of not seeing the 'reality'.

The point is, it's more understandable if you see it in a different perspective even if the reasoning isn't the same.

Originally Posted by Haksaw

This is a great place to learn about Russia, life there, culture; as seen through the eyes and experiences of "?Americans?" living in Moscow.... http://www.expat.ru/forum/index.php?

I have to disagree with that. I think the Expat.ru forums are just full of narrow-minded people who only want to hang out with other expats. About the only useful thing you'll find on that site is where all of the Americans and British people hang out, so you won't have to deal as much with Russian culture.

Originally Posted by tdk2fe

Originally Posted by Haksaw

This is a great place to learn about Russia, life there, culture; as seen through the eyes and experiences of "?Americans?" living in Moscow.... http://www.expat.ru/forum/index.php?

I have to disagree with that. I think the Expat.ru forums are just full of narrow-minded people who only want to hang out with other expats. About the only useful thing you'll find on that site is where all of the Americans and British people hang out, so you won't have to deal as much with Russian culture.

Some of them even read The Moscow Times...

Originally Posted by Amaranta

You know, I've had more or less the same problem. (Thing is, I'm totally unable to understand why someone from Europe would *want* to move to America in the first place , but I guess this is a matter of priorities.)

Then I found out that the guy in question had moved out in the mid 'wild west' nineties, because his father couldn't keep up with the money he was earning. He never went back. Now, I've been in Russia (though admittedly in Petersburg, which happens to be my favourite place in the world - I just know some of you will start arguing about how Petersburg is *not* Russia, which of course might be true, but this is not my point) but he just laughed at me when I tried to explain my feelings.
His reaction made me so sad that I gave up talking with him altogether. While I can understand his bitterness, I can't accept that someone could condemn their country so easily, especially when they left it in a time of crisis, of transition. He even refused to speak Russian, saying that it was 'a useless language', which drove me quite mad.

Yeah my situation with that guy from my first post was similar for sure. It angered me too, and I too have given up on talking with him. He turned 100% anti-russian.

Originally Posted by voshliya

Hi stars,
Go and you'll see.
Such as you I love Russia
Russian litteratue,russian art,russian history,russian music
russian people
and the country
Between Russia and me it's a LOVE STORY;
BUT
sometimes it's a pity to see how people still live in the XXIth century and I can say most of the people....
They don't live better than they lived when communism
even worse
I have been there every year or every two years since 1966....
so I can tell you....
There's a proof:
so many young woman wish to marry an old european or american fat man
just to go away from there
You've never seen a french young woman marry an old rich american !!!
My best russian russian friend from peterburg got retired last april.She was an architect.Her pension is 43 euros /month which is about 50$/month.
The basic wage there is about 200$/month
etc etc etc
but I DO LOVE RUSSIA
И вот что я хочу ей сказать:
"ЖДИ МЕНЯ И Я ВЕРНУСЬ " Симонов

Yeah, I know the country isn't exactly rich and all.... but I've seen pictures of the landscape, I've heard music, I've heard the language. It's all beautiful. I think Russian people are strong and awesome people. I love Russia like you do, and also believe in a better future for the country.

Well, that is not fully true above.
Let's calculate a bit.

An average salary in Europe is 2-3 thousand dollars per month (afaik). It's 55-85 thousand rubles.
Almost half of it european workers give away to pay taxes. So they are left with about 1000-1500 dollars to spend per month.

In Russia a good specialist earns about 10 thousand roubles and higher without limit (our family income is about 50 thousand roubles (combining dad and mom's wages). That is considered high in small towns and fairly good in big ones. These amount of money are what they get on hands. Taxes are very low. For 50 thousand roubles we can buy much more and live a very good life than a european for his 1000-1500 dollars. Prices are much lower here than in Europe.

The other thing is that the state is too much worried about money and is reluctant to invest in society, public health etc...

and the BIGGEST problem is that a european can buy ANYTHING in credit, in Russia crediting is somewhat unreal, that is why we can't live in credit as you do...

Ugh, yeah, here everything is soooooo expensive and there's lots of tax everywhere ~_~

Originally Posted by Vincent Tailors

In Russia a good specialist earns about 10 thousand roubles

Originally Posted by Vincent Tailors

in Russia crediting is somewhat unreal, that is why we can't live in credit as you do...

where do you live?

Novgorod the Great.

Originally Posted by Vincent Tailors

An average salary in Europe is 2-3 thousand dollars per month (afaik). It's 55-85 thousand rubles.
Almost half of it european workers give away to pay taxes. So they are left with about 1000-1500 dollars to spend per month.

and the BIGGEST problem is that a european can buy ANYTHING in credit, in Russia crediting is somewhat unreal, that is why we can't live in credit as you do...

Salaries vary a lot from country to country. The average salary in Luxemburg has little to do with the average salary in Portugal, and it's worse in central Europe. I'm not talking about all the unemployed people here. Even though Europe might be the best place to be unemployed, it still isn't a confortable situation, especially with a family. Plus, there are 'working poors' too. Many people earn minimum wage.

Also, I don't think that credit ever helped anyone, if you see the huge number of people who have excessive debts and can't pay back anymore.
Actually, *not* using credit is the best thing that can happen to poor people who don't want to end up even worse. It doesn't solve problems.

That is why I don't understand some former fellow countrymen, who leave for the West and while living worse or at least not significantly better throw mud at Russia and talk shиt about "a useless language".

Originally Posted by Vincent Tailors

Novgorod the Great.

I don't know about Novgorod but here (as well as in Moscow ? St.Pete ...) everything is on credit.

And you know, "good specialist" makes ~25000 and above

Alware,

I live in Russia, I know what crediting looks like here. I don't deny crediting at all, I deny its Russian "subspecies". When a man earns 15000 dollars per month and a bank denies his claim for credit -- that's f@cking weird, isn't it?
And look at interest rates...

P.S.
Novgorod is a small town (247k pop.), salaries here are much lower than in Novosibirsk, Omsk or SPB.

Originally Posted by Alware

Originally Posted by Amaranta

I can't accept that someone could condemn their country so easily, especially when they left it

That's exactly the reason. People who left Russia for good in order to live ordinary life working at McDonalds or smthing of that kind won't say anything good about their former homeland.

That's the thing, they do not have much good to say. e.g. a typical IT professional's income in Russia will be several times lower than that in the US/Europe, but it is partially compensated by lower cost of living, taxes, etc. And for some people life in Russia would be actually better.

But for a family of, say, a McDonald's worker and a taxi driver life in the US/Europe will be usually *much* better than in Russia.
So impressions you'll get from these people will be quite different, and rightfully so. And people from the first group do not realize it.

It's the same with other countries too -- an Indian IT engineer may prefer a $30K job in India to a $80K job in the US because he can get a meal at a restaurant for $1 there, but what about the person cooking that meal?

Originally Posted by Vincent Tailors

Alware,

I live in Russia, I know what crediting looks like here. I don't deny crediting at all, I deny its Russian "subspecies". When a man earns 15000 dollars per month and a bank denies his claim for credit -- that's f@cking weird, isn't it?
And look at interest rates....

V. T.

I live in Russia and I used to live in the US. And you know what? Here it's alot easier to get a credit than in the US (to purchase car or some). They don't even check your credit record and real wage.

P.S.
Novgorod is a small town (247k pop.), salaries here are much lower than in Novosibirsk, Omsk or SPB.

I live in Krasnoyarsk