Thread: Life in our countries - "good, bad and ugly"...

Remember reading about the Mc Donald's that opened in Moscow in the 80s, and how people queued all day to visit. Even that young I thought "how pathetic". They have so much, and they queue for hours for a lousy cheeseburger from a country that would quite happily blow them to smitherins with a nuke.

That showed what they actually had, even McDonalds was met as a luxurious restaurant, even though it's really hard to imagine in the U.S., or say in Sweden. Because you probably don't know what lousy food really looks and tastes like if you haven't been to those Soviet dining rooms (столовые); the Russians themselves had made tons of jokes about the quality of food that was served there, and also about the process of having a meal there, that included struggling with cockroaches crawling out of the salad on your plate etc. Those people only had "so much" in someone's lefty idealistic imagination; I remember I was told as it became legal to have foreign currency as your savings, people started to buy bucks on a terrific scale, everyone tried to get rid of those "rubles" that could devalue by like 50-100 % in a week; as imported goods started to show up at local stores, people were ready to virtually pay whatever price to get them, they knew what local goods were worth; etc. etc. etc. Yes, it may seem naive to ones who never experienced that Soviet style life, but nevertheless, I totally understand those people, they had been denied decent quality of life for decades, and they were finally given the opportunity to make choices of their own, and that was priceless.

nobody could do anything fun in the USSR! Everybody was just suffering...

This one was brilliant. However, in reality, it's so amazing how swiftly you 'stop being soviet' when you suddenly cannot buy basic food (not for decades, just for couple days). Collapse is not simply a word, it means a terrible thing. I mean the life in for example 1975 and the life in 1990 - are absolutely disparate categories (also as lifes in Omsk and in Moscow at any time: hence most people in Moscow's queues were from other regions).
I remember the article in some newspaper, belonging to about the time when McDonalds had opened, where some foreign firm shipped "foreign" ice-cream to Moscow, and, of course, the queue immediately was created. "Советские люди так любят мороженое?" - asked foreign businessman in amazement. The author of article replied to him: "Советские люди любят всё!" BTW, foreign ice-cream was an absolute crap in comparison to what I used to eat, let's say in 1975..1985.
In short, any idea could be ruined if the chiefs cannot provide simple food to citizens.

Originally Posted by maxmixiv

This one was brilliant. However, in reality, it's so amazing how swiftly you 'stop being soviet' when you suddenly cannot buy basic food (not for decades, just for couple days). Collapse is not simply a word, it means a terrible thing. I mean the life in for example 1975 and the life in 1990 - are absolutely disparate categories (also as lifes in Omsk and in Moscow at any time: hence most people in Moscow's queues were from other regions).
I remember the article in some newspaper, belonging to about the time when McDonalds had opened, where some foreign firm shipped "foreign" ice-cream to Moscow, and, of course, the queue immediately was created. "Советские люди так любят мороженое?" - asked foreign businessman in amazement. The author of article replied to him: "Советские люди любят всё!" BTW, foreign ice-cream was an absolute crap in comparison to what I used to eat, let's say in 1975..1985.
In short, any idea could be ruined if the chiefs cannot provide simple food to citizens.

I absolutely loved the мароженое they sold in Soviet times. Delicious! Советское шампанское was another favorite. And as for food, well there was not a lot of variety when I was there because by then the economy was tanking... but there were still a few places where we went to eat and it was not all cockroaches and nastiness. There was a Georgian restaurant in Leningrad called "Tbilisi" which served some pretty good food. The commissary where we worked, on the other hand, that was nasty. But we got used to it. I learned not to look too closely at the cooks. Or at my plate. One time I found half a cockroach in my каша and I just pushed it aside and kept eating. That's when I knew I'd been there too long...

Originally Posted by Deborski

One time I found half a cockroach in my каша and I just pushed it aside and kept eating. That's when I knew I'd been there too long...

Let me guess, did this incident happened in 1989-1999 decade? If so, I could explain the trick. I guess as a foreigner and TV journalist you used to eat at private restaurants and so. The owners of these places prefered to bribe sanitary autorities and do their buisness as they want. At the same times I used to eat at my school cafeteria, uni cafeteria, factory where I worked etc. and never saw a cockroach there. These placeses were still working by USSR standarts and since they were still state-owned they couldn't bribe a sanitary inspectors. In the 2000s these places (I mean state owned places where you could get a dinner) almost died out (with some exceptions, some are still working). I remember when I was asked to do some ingineering work in "super cool" restaurant called " Pirosmani" owned by some Georgian mafia boss in 1999. It was located in a place in Moscow covered by tourists, owner showed me pictures of Bill Clinton and Boris Yeltsin having a dinner there with their signatures and words of gratitude and so. But when I visited the kitchen it was swarming with cockroaches. In 90s in Russia cockroaches were rather sign of a "cool" restaurant because the owner could say to "fvck of" to sanitary inspectors. The ordinary places had to be sterile or be closed by authorities.

Originally Posted by Basil77

Let me guess, did this incident happened in 1989-1999 decade? If so, I could explain the trick. I guess as a foreigner and TV journalist you used to eat at private restaurants and so. The owners of these places prefered to bribe sanitary autorities and do their buisness as they want. At the same times I used to eat at my school cafeteria, uni cafeteria, factory where I worked etc. and never saw a cockroach there. These placeses were still working by USSR standarts and since they were still state-owned they couldn't bribe a sanitary inspectors. In the 2000s these places (I mean state owned places where you could get a dinner) almost died out (with some exceptions, some are still working). I remember when I was asked to do some ingineering work in "super cool" restaurant called " Pirosmani" owned by some Georgian mafia boss in 1999. It was located in a place in Moscow covered by tourists, owner showed me pictures of Bill Clinton and Boris Yeltsin having a dinner there with their signatures and words of gratitude and so. But when I visited the kitchen it was swarming with cockroaches. In 90s in Russia cockroaches were rather sign of a "cool" restaurant because the owner could say to "fvck of" to sanitary inspectors. The ordinary places had to be sterile or be closed by authorities.

Nope. As a matter of fact, I worked за рубли and so actually it was very rare that we went out to the expensive, private restaurants and I only ate at the Astoria one time. More frequently I ate with my Russian colleagues at the commissary на телевидение, and that was where I found the cockroach. I guess that the cooks there either gave the inspectors the фиг в кармане or they just didn't care.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Nope. As a matter of fact, I worked<em> за рубли</em> and so actually it was very rare that we went out to the expensive, private restaurants and I only ate at the Astoria one time. More frequently I ate with my Russian colleagues at the commissary<em> на телевидение,</em> and that was where I found the cockroach. I guess that the cooks there either gave the inspectors the <em>фиг в кармане</em> or they just didn't care.

Ok, I stand corrected then. But still, for me, столовские тевтели на противне с поджареной корочкой с подливкой и гарниром из гречки, которые толстая тётка накладывает тебе лопаточкой с недовольным видом, но, если ты ей улыбнёшься, добавит подливки, are still one of the best food I ever could get.

Originally Posted by Basil77

...These placeses were still working by USSR standarts and since they were still state-owned they couldn't bribe a sanitary inspectors.

Почему нет? Денег не хватало у директоров? Так инспекторы тоже не дураки: проще взять столько, сколько можно реально, чем закрывать кого-то (кто на следующий день опять откроется на том же месте).

Тараканов помню только в деревенской столовой. Мы участвовали в мероприятии "колхозники помогают студентам собирать урожай" на стороне студентов, а обедали вместе с комбайнёрами. Любое блюдо содержало 1-2 тараканов, они были на виду, и мы (студенты) их вылавливали. Колхозники же, казалось, вообще не смущались. Не зря говорят (обычно про мух, комаров,...): "Это ведь тоже мясо!"
Было это ещё в СССР, кажется, в 1989.

Remember reading about the Mc Donald's that opened in Moscow in the 80s, and how people queued all day to visit. Even that young I thought "how pathetic". They have so much, and they queue for hours for a lousy cheeseburger from a country that would quite happily blow them to smithereens with a nuke.

When I first started teaching English in Moscow -- late August 1993 -- I felt exactly the same way about the McDonalds: "How pathetic!" As you say, McDonalds cheeseburgers really are rather lousy (I feel sorry for anyone whose only conception of a hamburger is based on McDonalds crap!).

But by Christmas-time or so, I finally snapped and went to one of the Moscow McDonalds -- because the floors were so clean, and the people at the cash register didn't growl and yell at you. Plus, there was fresh lettuce -- real, actual lettuce, although in very tiny pieces -- on the Big Macs. These small things -- clean floors, smiling staff, a green vegetable that didn't come from a can -- were very, very welcome after a few months in 1990s Moscow, when I was earning not-very-much-money as an English tutor.

Which is not to say that I made a habit of McDonalds -- you can't eat clean floors and smiles, and the actual food at McDonalds sucks. I nearly always cooked my own food at home to save money, but if I was very hungry and in a hurry, I preferred to buy something from a street vendor if I happened to pass one who was selling hot snacks -- пирожки "с котятами" tasted better than a McDonalds burger, and was a lot cheaper. Even the street-vendor пицца, although not very good back in those days*, was slightly better than a Big Mac.

* Tomato sauce was always too bland, the cheese was usually something Havarti-like, not even close to mozzarella, and there wasn't enough of either the sauce or the cheese -- it was mostly bread.

PS. But I don't agree that the US "would've quite happily blown them to smithereens with a nuke." Nukes are tremendously expensive, my dear, and the whole point of building them is TO NOT USE THEM. Actually delivering the warheads to their destinations -- namely, a kilometer or so above Moscow and other Soviet cities -- would have been, therefore, good money thrown away.

There's a reason, you know, that the airborne nuclear command center of the US during the Cold War was called Operation Looking Glass. (Note that in US English, a зеркало is invariably called a "mirror"; the only time we Merkins ever use the phrase "looking glass" is when we intend it as a reference to Lewis Carroll.)

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

There's a reason, you know, that the airborne nuclear command center of the US during the Cold War was called Operation Looking Glass. (Note that in US English, a зеркало is invariably called a "mirror"; the only time we Merkins ever use the phrase "looking glass" is when we intend it as a reference to Lewis Carroll.)

It is said that Lewis Carroll based his classic "Through the Looking Glass" on his own travels in Russia. I am not sure it was ever confirmed if this is true, but it would not surprise me in the slightest and in fact, in that context, Alice and the Cheshire Cat and the Mad Hatter all take on an even fuller dimension.

Originally Posted by Deborski

It is said that Lewis Carroll based his classic "Through the Looking Glass" on his own travels in Russia. I am not sure it was ever confirmed if this is true, but it would not surprise me in the slightest and in fact, in that context, Alice and the Cheshire Cat and the Mad Hatter all take on an even fuller dimension.

Really, he went to Russia?! Had no idea. I don't really see any correlation between Russia and Through the Looking Glass, but I'm not exactly a literature connoisseur.

Originally Posted by Deborski

I have a stack of issues dating back to the Brezhnev and Krushchev eras and they actually pointed out the flaws with capitalism fairly accurately. In fact, I was leafing through some of them recently and it struck me that the cartoons in them are still quite relevant today. In fact, maybe especially relevant.

I had the experience growing up of being subjected to a LOT of left wing stuff, anti-americanism etc. You don't have to be from the USSR for that, really. Once I started becoming aware of it, quite young, I totally resented having it subtly and not-so-subtly in-your-face from TV, radio and papers. Not because it wasn't true, but because it was tiresome and patronising.
And the social pressure was frustrating; woe to the child who'd not fully play along with the topics du jour in school. Peace, solidarity, anti-imperialism etc, etc. Oh well,

And I eventually (90s) I rejected it quite thoroughly, becoming a neo liberal, pro EU etc.

The trouble, like you say, is that the things the leftist people, are/were saying, is true. It's happening.
It can be substantiated, observed and it's going on right under your nose, whether you have a problem with it, or think it's acceptable. It's not a conspiracy or a daydream. That's why it's so hard to ignore it.

Whether revolution, and the ideas the Marx & co promoted are the actual solution, is another problem though. Perhaps they could diagnose the illness but their proposed cure was ultimately never going to work, or the price/flipside is too unacceptable.

In terms of the opinions stuffed down your throat, it's just been a U-turn, and instead of solidarity and all that, it's now globalism, political correctness, consumerism and myths about the utter evilness of, for example, communism. And now, just like then, some people drank the kool-aid [this is my fave american expression!] and will think exactly what media wants them to think.

For Russians though, the situation is so extreme! From Socialism and communist ideology for real, via "wild East" years and cowboy capitalism, to Putin's Russia of nationalism, conservative values and cronyist economy. One of the many things that makes Russia so fascinating. And probably the whole journey is also what makes Russians so cynical.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Really, he went to Russia?! Had no idea. I don't really see any correlation between Russia and Through the Looking Glass, but I'm not exactly a literature connoisseur.

Indeed it was his only foreign travel experience outside the Isles.

Lewis Carroll in a Russian wonderland of surprises - Telegraph


Excerpt:

The only time the author Lewis Carroll travelled outside the British Isles was when he took a trip to Russia and threw himself into an adventure as impetuously as Alice did when venturing down the rabbit hole.

The role of the White Rabbit was played by Carroll’s friend and colleague Henry Liddon. On July 4, 1867, Liddon suggested to Carroll that they visit Russia, and, just one week later, they set off.

Some researchers have suggested that this is where Carroll got the idea for Through the Looking-Glass. Even if he did not, one thing is clear: the country made a big impression on the writer, who recounted his experiences in his Russian Journal.

First it was St Petersburg, the “city of giants” with its wide streets (“even the secondary streets are wider than any in London”); then Moscow, where he spent two weeks; and Nizhny Novgorod, where he and Liddon dashed to the fair, naively hoping to get there and back in a day.

Carroll spent his time in Russia with the palpable enthusiasm of someone making a new discovery, excitedly transcribing long words, such as zashchishchaiushchikhsya, into his notebook, haggling enthusiastically with cab drivers and writing vivid descriptions of Orthodox churches. Those in Moscow he thought “outwardly resembled cactuses with sprouts in various colours”, seeing their domes as “curved mirrors” in which “pictures of the city’s life are reflected”.

Other resources:

http://moskvoved.blogspot.com/2012/0...cow-intro.html

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...f-lewis-carrol

Interestingly and I think, significantly, Vladimir Nabokov wrote a translation of Lewis Carroll's classic:

http://www.amazon.com/Nabokov-Russia.../dp/0486233162

Originally Posted by Deborski

...Interestingly and I think, significantly, Vladimir Nabokov wrote a translation of Lewis Carroll's classic:

The Nabokov Russian Translation of Lewis Carroll&#39;s Alice in Wonderland: Lewis Carroll, Vladimir Nabokov: 9780486233161: Amazon.com: Books

Льюис Кэрролл. Аня в стране чудес

Originally Posted by Hanna

For Russians though, the situation is so extreme! From Socialism and communist ideology for real, via "wild East" years and cowboy capitalism, to Putin's Russia of nationalism, conservative values and cronyist economy. One of the many things that makes Russia so fascinating. And probably the whole journey is also what makes Russians so cynical.

Actually, I can't say for all Russians of course, but some of us are just trying to live here. Falling in love, getting married, giving a birth to children, building houses, giving children education and doing other boring things. Putin and Yeltsin, democracy and communism, Lenin and Marx, Cthulhu and Luke Skywalker: it's just a background noise that affects us more or less.

Originally Posted by Basil77

Actually, I can't say for all Russians of course, but some of us are just trying to live here. Falling in love, getting married, giving a birth to children, building houses, giving children education and doing other boring things. Putin and Yeltsin, democracy and communism, Lenin and Marx, Cthulhu and Luke Skywalker: it's just a background noise that affects us more or less.

Sounds like the majority of people everywhere. As Shakespeare wrote "Hercules will do as he may, still cats will meow and dogs have their day."

Originally Posted by Hanna

For Russians though, the situation is so extreme! From Socialism and communist ideology for real, via "wild East" years and cowboy capitalism, to Putin's Russia of nationalism, conservative values and cronyist economy. One of the many things that makes Russia so fascinating. And probably the whole journey is also what makes Russians so cynical.

Почему вы считаете, что Putin's Russia имеет какое-то отношение к национализму? Как у вас сформировалось это представление?

16 People On Things They Couldn’t Believe About America Until They Moved Here | Thought Catalog



"4. Natalia Rekhter

I’m from Russia. Below are a few things I almost always have to explain or discuss with visitors from Russia.

• Why individual houses are so large? We always get into discussion that house is not just a shelter, but also a manifestation of one’s financial achievements.
• Philanthropy. There is no culture of philanthropy in Russia and many view American philanthropy either as a waste of money or as some intricate plot to get some additional benefits.
• People don’t walk places. They go everywhere by a car.
• There is almost no public transportation except in a few large cities. People actually have to have cars to get places. Cars are necessity, not luxury.
• Majority of high and middle schools have sport facilities of very high, almost professional quality.
• Many schools have orchestras, bands, theaters of a very high, almost professional quality. Free.
• Every state has a lot of autonomy.
• President’s salary is comparable with the one of a plastic surgeon.
• President doesn’t automatically become the richest person in the country.
• Majority of things in the US aren’t controlled or regulated by the government.
• Children are expected to leave home when they are 18.
• Students prefer and are expected to live in a dorm and not with parents.
• When relatives visit they often stay in the hotel.
• Many children, even in well to do families, work in fast food, car washes and do a lot of other things to get money and it is not an embarrassment.
• Parents have their babies sleeping in separate rooms almost from the day of their birth. (Russians find #11-15 are particularly absurd, offensive, and egotistical.)
• Many Russians believe that American system of primary and secondary education is very inefficient. As a mother, I have to explain that it is very diverse and essentially even in the poorest districts there are tons of resources available for children who are willing to use them. There are also an opportunity for kids to take advanced and extra advanced classes providing they are willing and able to do the work. And this differentiation is available as early as elementary school.
• How well elderly live, even those on SSI and Medicaid. How many services are available to them.
• How open Americans are about their shortcomings and always ready for self-criticism.
• Millions of people don’t have medical insurance.
• Some hospitals look like five-star hotels.
• Budgets of some hospitals are equal to h/c budgets of small countries.
• Doctors tell their patients everything.
• Return policies and free refill.
• Idea of a liberal art education. In Russia, after high school graduation, a student should decide on vocation: engineer, doctor, teacher, lawyer, accountant, etc. It seems inconceivable to attend a university and then to graduate without a solid specialty. I often have to explain that not knowing what one wants to do after high school is an acceptable norm in US. A student can still acquire marketable skills, expand his or horizons, get a job after graduation, and, what is even more surprising, obtain an advance degree in a totally different field later. Yes, accountant can attend a med school and become a doctor and musician can go for a master degree in computer science. "

А закупившись пирожками с котятами, ты бы мог заявиться в МакДональдс, помахать у них пирожками перед носом, и подразнить:

"А вы кушайте сами пирожки с волосами!" (такая поэзия)

President doesn’t automatically become the richest person in the country

Ну, у нас, в общем-то, тоже.

Majority of things in the US aren’t controlled or regulated by the government

Откуда она знает, что, на самом деле, controlled, а что - нет?
В любом случае, в России контроль правительства слабее.

Many Russians believe that American system of primary and secondary education is very inefficient. As a mother, I have to explain that it is very diverse and essentially even in the poorest districts there are tons of resources available for children who are willing to use them. There are also an opportunity for kids to take advanced and extra advanced classes providing they are willing and able to do the work. And this differentiation is available as early as elementary school.

Одно другому не противоречит. Чему здесь русские удивляются?

З українського Forbes за власним бажанням пішло 14 журналістів - Новини - Український тиждень


"14 журналістів українського Forbes у вівторок написали заяви про звільнення через "намагання змінити редакційну політику"."

Originally Posted by Lampada

З українського Forbes за власним бажанням пішло 14 журналістів - Новини - Український тиждень


"14 журналістів українського Forbes у вівторок написали заяви про звільнення через "намагання змінити редакційну політику"."

Looks like TOP-13 on the Forbes list =)))