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Thread: Let anyone have their own ways

  1. #1
    Lena
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    Let anyone have their own ways

    Quote Originally Posted by kgcole View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene-p View Post
    kgcole, I don't think translating word by word is a good idea. In your studies you will definitely come across a hell of a lot of things that don't allow this kind of translation. You had better get prepared to it now.
    I understand what you mean, Eugene. I guess I've just run into translation that I've read that change the meaning or intent by introducing new ideas, so I'm judicious about how I do it myself. But you know what they say: "Never say never"...lol
    I understand your point of view, too, Eugene, but I cannot quite agree with you. Kevin is groping his own way of learning a language. If he composes his sentences by himself (I mean if he doesn’t google-translate them, lol), then he is definitely advancing. If he tries to memorize words and expressions he uses, if he is attentive to the grammar rules he comes across while composing his sentences, then his way is quite acceptable at this particular stage of his learning.

    Do you think he cannot afford to buy a textbook or download one? I’m sure he can. But he wants to start with the most essential things for him. He wants to start with what he would like to say to his Russian interlocutor first of all. And besides he wants to have fun while learning instead of reading dull texts. Emotions are important in any work.

    Next. I hope you agree that one of the main things about learning a language is being persistent. I’d say learning a language is all about being motivated and persistent. Two persons may graduate from a university and have absolutely different levels of knowledge. You could claim that the traditional way of learning is the best, only if any person who has employed it becomes fluent in a year or two. But it does not often happen. Personally you must have learned English in school for 10 years, then at a college and besides that by yourself. Can you say that your English is perfect? Mind also that English sounds in all kinds of the media in Russia, it’s in songs, movies, it’s popular. Here it’s kind of prestige to know English. You get admired by everyone if your English is far above the average level. Not so with Kevin, and not so with Russian in the US. Russian is far less popular there. Americans are self-sufficient in this regard, for they are worldwide language native speakers, lol. Then you also can look at me. I’ve been learning English with proper textbooks for years. Still I am very much similar to a dog that understands almost everything but can say nothing, lol.

    Do you know how Heinrich Schliemann, the legendary founder of Troy, learned a language? He employed his own system that he used his entire life. Schliemann claimed that it took him six weeks to learn a language and wrote his diary in the language of whatever country he happened to be in. He just took a book in his native language and its translation into the language he was learning. He read them simultaneously and just compared. Finally he knew 13 foreign languages!

    Kevin may find it necessary to quit this practice any moment, he may start employing something different or something else. It’s up to him to feel at any particular stage of his learning that he has grown out of this practice and he needs to take a further step. But I’m sure that what he is doing now does do him good.
    Deborski likes this.

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    Thanks for the support Helene. I really do try and straddle the fence with respect to conventional grammar and practical application by just writing it and attempting to put my own thoughts into words. As you mention, the motivation is important to me...just connecting with people on a personal level that makes it fun and interesting. Of course, it requires patience from others while I make mistakes...lol. But as you say, we're all learning and we should all have a little patience with each other. After all, communication is what we do it for, isn't it? I hope we all continue to have fun, and learn the rules as we go, too.

  3. #3
    Lena
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgcole View Post
    Thanks for the support Helene.
    Nothing to thank for, Kevin, I was just trying to express my point.
    I hope to see the results of your checking of my opus on the thread where we usually meet.

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    Властелин Deborski's Avatar
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    Mind also that English sounds in all kinds of the media in Russia, it’s in songs, movies, it’s popular. Here it’s kind of prestige to know English. You get admired by everyone if your English is far above the average level. Not so with Kevin, and not so with Russian in the US. Russian is far less popular there. Americans are self-sufficient in this regard, for they are worldwide language native speakers, lol.
    It's really true! Here, if you study Russian, they call you a "commie." I can't count the number of times people have made fun of me because of my life-long interest in Russia and it's culture, people, and language. Also, resources are not exactly commonplace.

    I don't know why Americans cling to these stupid, outdated stereotypes. I try to inform them. Mostly, they just are not very interested in Russia. Too bad for them! They are missing out.
    Вот потому, что вы говорите то, что не думаете, и думаете то, что не думаете, вот в клетках и сидите. И вообще, весь этот горький катаклизм, который я здесь наблюдаю, и Владимир Николаевич тоже…

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    Властелин Medved's Avatar
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    Thanks for your perspective, Helen but honestly Im not into arguing with you. The thread title puts the point across perfectly, and I do understand your reasoning too. And whevener I'm saying something, I don't really pretend that it's the absolute truth. It simply means that I think so, nothing more. Oh btw I've been learning English for 5 years now, no college, no school, no tutors. Just me and my friends on the other side of the screen.

    Cheers!
    Another month ends. All targets met. All systems working. All customers satisfied. All staff eagerly enthusiastic. All pigs fed and ready to fly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborski View Post
    It's really true! Here, if you study Russian, they call you a "commie." I can't count the number of times people have made fun of me because of my life-long interest in Russia and it's culture, people, and language. Also, resources are not exactly commonplace.

    I don't know why Americans cling to these stupid, outdated stereotypes. I try to inform them. Mostly, they just are not very interested in Russia. Too bad for them! They are missing out.
    One thing I think about stereotypes, Deborski, is that for every person we meet that we think is that stereotype, often there is another person that is exactly opposite, or at least unlike the stereotype. When one is talking about millions of people, even having met a few thousand doesn't give an accurate cross section of a populace, I don't think. I try to be on my guard about making stereotypes in my head. I'm not always successful, but I think it's important to be critical that way.

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    Well, we're all friends here, and it's like Eugene pointed out about the thread topic, we're all finding out our own way to success with our goal of learning another language. Myself, I just like to communicate. I figure that while I'm learning the rules, I can practice, you know. I feel we're all valued members of this forum!

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    Властелин Deborski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgcole View Post
    One thing I think about stereotypes, Deborski, is that for every person we meet that we think is that stereotype, often there is another person that is exactly opposite, or at least unlike the stereotype. When one is talking about millions of people, even having met a few thousand doesn't give an accurate cross section of a populace, I don't think. I try to be on my guard about making stereotypes in my head. I'm not always successful, but I think it's important to be critical that way.
    Very true. Are you implying that I am stereotyping Americans? I am only talking about my own experiences. Of course, not all Americans are like that. Look at me
    Вот потому, что вы говорите то, что не думаете, и думаете то, что не думаете, вот в клетках и сидите. И вообще, весь этот горький катаклизм, который я здесь наблюдаю, и Владимир Николаевич тоже…

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    Nah, I was just cautioning that it's easy to stereotype. I guess when we're in an international community like we are, it's important to be critical of ourselves. Like I say, I'm not always successful...sometimes I find myself stereotyping. But hopefully I get back to the center when I really think about it. You know how those extreme edges are....it's cold out there! lol

  10. #10
    Властелин Deborski's Avatar
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    As for myself, I try not to stereotype. But when I am describing my own experiences, sometimes I have to generalize. Of course I have friends who are impressed with my language studies, but I can't honestly say that any of my friends are interested in Russia like I am.
    Вот потому, что вы говорите то, что не думаете, и думаете то, что не думаете, вот в клетках и сидите. И вообще, весь этот горький катаклизм, который я здесь наблюдаю, и Владимир Николаевич тоже…

  11. #11
    Lena
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborski View Post
    Here, if you study Russian, they call you a "commie." I can't count the number of times people have made fun of me because of my life-long interest in Russia and it's culture, people, and language.
    Quote Originally Posted by kgcole View Post
    When one is talking about millions of people, even having met a few thousand doesn't give an accurate cross section of a populace.
    I understand that Deborski didn’t mean the whole nation. Nevertheless such a testimony impresses a lot. It will NEVER occur to anyone in Ukraine to disparage a person for their interest in the US and the English language. They are considered as ambitious and potentially more successful people. They may be even envied for that, but never disrespected. It’s been long ago since looking westward meant “родину продал”.

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    Властелин Deborski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helenej View Post
    I understand that Deborski didn’t mean the whole nation. Nevertheless such a testimony impresses a lot. It will NEVER occur to anyone in Ukraine to disparage a person for their interest in the US and the English language. They are considered as ambitious and potentially more successful people. They may be even envied for that, but never disrespected.
    I have to say that in my experience, Americans are far less tolerant of foreigners than Russians, also. In the US, lots of people get annoyed if you don't speak English right. Not ALL people, of course. Just the ignorant ones.

    But when I lived in Russia (for two years) no one ever made fun of my (very poor!) Russian. At least, not to my face!
    Вот потому, что вы говорите то, что не думаете, и думаете то, что не думаете, вот в клетках и сидите. И вообще, весь этот горький катаклизм, который я здесь наблюдаю, и Владимир Николаевич тоже…

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    At least websites like this offer a place for people to go for cultural exchanges. I'm glad I stumbled onto here and found a means for the interaction I really needed!

  14. #14
    Lena
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene-p View Post
    Im not into arguing with you. The thread title puts the point across perfectly, and I do understand your reasoning too. And whevener I'm saying something, I don't really pretend that it's the absolute truth. It simply means that I think so, nothing more.
    I was only trying to say that quite enough of critiques had already been said concerning kgcole's method. It may be an unnecessary pressure to him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene-p View Post
    btw I've been learning English for 5 years now, no college, no school, no tutors. Just me and my friends on the other side of the screen.

    Cheers!
    Good for you. That's impressive. Are there any tips you could share? You should inspire the community.


  15. #15
    Lena
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborski View Post
    I have to say that in my experience, Americans are far less tolerant of foreigners than Russians, also. In the US, lots of people get annoyed if you don't speak English right. Not ALL people, of course. Just the ignorant ones.

    But when I lived in Russia (for two years) no one ever made fun of my (very poor!) Russian. At least, not to my face!
    No wonder. You are American. I think if you were Turkish, Armenian, Georgian or Tajik, you would have felt the difference. Not everything is so cloudless here also. You shouldn't idealize Russia. There are people everywhere. And they are different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helenej View Post
    I was only trying to say that quite enough of critiques had already been said concerning kgcole's method. It may be an unnecessary pressure to him.

    Good for you. That's impressive. Are there any tips you could share? You should inspire the community.

    Yeah, I guess we're all in the same boat when it comes to learning. It's a never-ending process, I believe. I must admit I was initially discouraged about joining the forum, but the desire to achieve my goal of learning a language overruled my trepidation...lol. I'm glad I've made friends and we all seem to get along with this study of each other's language. Gotta love technology!

  17. #17
    Властелин Deborski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helenej View Post
    No wonder. You are American. I think if you were Turkish, Armenian, Georgian or Tajik, you would have felt the difference. Not everything is so cloudless here also. You shouldn't idealize Russia. There are people everywhere. And they are different.
    Oh, my view of Russia is far from cloudless. To be honest, I have a love/hate relationship with your country! I am well aware of the racism, homophobia and sexism in Russia and had I been an African-American, the story would have been different I am sure.

    Again, these are just my own personal experiences. Please, everyone! Don't assume that I therefore think everything in Russia is perfect or that everything in America is horrible. My views are really not that black and white. I see all the colors of the rainbow... even the shades of grey)))
    Вот потому, что вы говорите то, что не думаете, и думаете то, что не думаете, вот в клетках и сидите. И вообще, весь этот горький катаклизм, который я здесь наблюдаю, и Владимир Николаевич тоже…

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborski View Post
    Oh, my view of Russia is far from cloudless. To be honest, I have a love/hate relationship with your country! I am well aware of the racism, homophobia and sexism in Russia and had I been an African-American, the story would have been different I am sure.

    Again, these are just my own personal experiences. Please, everyone! Don't assume that I therefore think everything in Russia is perfect or that everything in America is horrible. My views are really not that black and white. I see all the colors of the rainbow... even the shades of grey)))
    I imagine there are always extremes wherever, whatever country, one looks. But I believe there are always people of reasonable mind, too. We're all examples of that. We get along, and exchange our ideas, and desire to learn. That makes life worthwhile wherever we are.

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    Властелин Deborski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgcole View Post
    I imagine there are always extremes wherever, whatever country, one looks. But I believe there are always people of reasonable mind, too. We're all examples of that. We get along, and exchange our ideas, and desire to learn. That makes life worthwhile wherever we are.
    Вот это да!
    Вот потому, что вы говорите то, что не думаете, и думаете то, что не думаете, вот в клетках и сидите. И вообще, весь этот горький катаклизм, который я здесь наблюдаю, и Владимир Николаевич тоже…

  20. #20
    Lena
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborski View Post
    had I been an African-American, the story would have been different I am sure.
    That’s for sure. Not a slightest doubt about that. You would have definitely been looked down on, unless you were wealthy with all those attributes. Stereotypes are slowly ruined. I think your president being Afro-American is a great thing that helps ruin them. You know, we cannot value him. But the fact that he has been valued by the whole nation makes us respect him. Funny, hah?

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