Thread: Do Russians know all the grammatical terms?

Originally Posted by Pioner

Originally Posted by Milanya

BTW. If you have been driven, someone has been driving you.

WRONG!!!

I will not argue with you. There is no point. Nevertheless, may I suggest that you check the difference between active voice and passive voice in your grammar book?

"to drive" is active, "to be driven" is passive.

Originally Posted by Indra

scotcher, what's the difference between "I have lived in Narofominsk for 5 years" and "I have been living..."?

There is no difference.

Hey, this stuff is hard, no foreigner ever need fret about making a mistake.

Indra:

scotcher, what's the difference between "I have lived in Narofominsk for 5 years" and "I have been living..."?

Essentially nothing

The first makes a simple statement of fact, the second describes an ongoing process. The choice would depend on the wider context of the conversation. Basically, they are the same answer to different questions. In this case though, the verb itself doesn't really lend itself to showing the distinction. Trouble is, I can't think of a better example off the top of my head

Originally Posted by Milanya

Originally Posted by Pioner

Originally Posted by Milanya

BTW. If you have been driven, someone has been driving you.

WRONG!!!

I will not argue with you. There is no point. Nevertheless, may I suggest that you check the difference between active voice and passive voice in your grammar book?

"to drive" is active, "to be driven" is passive.

that is right. But form "I have been driven" has nothing to do with "to be driven", as I wrote, the corrent (but weird) form would be "I have been being driven".

Originally Posted by Indra

scotcher, what's the difference between "I have lived in Narofominsk for 5 years" and "I have been living..."?

I'll tell you what the difference is.
"I have been living in Narofominsk for 5 years"
Implies that you are still there living in Narofominsk.

"I have lived in Narofominsk for 5 years"

Implies nothing except that at one time you lived there or maybe you still do live there. It depends on the rest of the sentence or context. Is it not possible to say,
"I have lived in Narofominsk for 5 years. But that was 15 years ago. No one else applying for the position has lived there at all. So, I think that the job of Mayor of Narofominsk should be given to me." ?

The word "have" is used here to stress that you, in particular, have lived there.

It is also possible to say, "Well, I have lived in Narofominsk but I am sure glad I don't live there now."

Originally Posted by DDT

It is also possible to say, "Well, I have lived in Narofominsk but I am sure glad I don't live there now."

I would say "Well, I did live in Narofominsk but I am sure glad I don't live there now."

It may be incorrect to say "I have lived there but now I don't" but I cannot explain it. It just sounds a wee bit strange.

Originally Posted by DDT

Originally Posted by Indra

scotcher, what's the difference between "I have lived in Narofominsk for 5 years" and "I have been living..."?

I'll tell you what the difference is.
"I have been living in Narofominsk for 5 years"
Implies that you are still there living in Narofominsk.

"I have lived in Narofominsk for 5 years"

Implies nothing except that at one time you lived there or maybe you still do live there. It depends on the rest of the sentence or context. Is it not possible to say,
"I have lived in Narofominsk for 5 years. But that was 15 years ago. No one else applying for the position has lived there at all. So, I think that the job of Mayor of Narofominsk should be given to me." ?

The word "have" is used here to stress that you, in particular, have lived there.

It is also possible to say, "Well, I have lived in Narofominsk but I am sure glad I don't live there now."

Yes, absolutely.

That's what I meant by wider context being needed.

scotcher or someone else

explain to people what is the difference between "I have been driven" and "I have been being driven", please. Please, confirm that "I have been driven" does mean "Я вел машину " в течении какого-то времни, not, that I am a car or something like that.

I understand that "I have been being driven" - sounds weird, but grammatically means exactly that "I am a car" or "I was a pasanger in the car" and somebody took me to SF.

Originally Posted by Pioner

scotcher or someone else

explain to people what is the difference between "I have been driven" and "I have been being driven", please. Please, confirm that "I have been driven" does mean "Я вел машину " в течении какого-то времни, not, that I am a car or something like that.

I understand that "I have been being driven" - sounds weird, but grammatically means exactly that "I am a car" or "I was a pasanger in the car" and somebody took me to SF.

Cripes, there are some theoretical stretches going on here.

Right....

"I have been driven to SF" is a simple statement of fact, the described action took place in the past. This is a complete sentence in it's own right. It could take a qualifier, (really quickly/ in the trunk/ twice/ whatever) but it doesn't need one.

"I have been being driven to SF..." describes an ongoing process which started in the past. Crucially, this is not a complete sentence in it's own right. It is missing a qualifier necessary to make it grammatically correct; "I have been being driven to SF for the past 4 hours", for example.

In either of them the subject ("I") could be a passanger or the car itself.

A better example to get the 'feel' of the difference:

The student has been taught English. (implies successful completion)

The student has been being taught English for three months. (implies an ongoing, incomplete process)

Ok, still a little confusing, let's take work "to show"

I have been shown smth. - я показывал что-то
I have been being shown for 3 hours - меня показывали в течении трех часов.

Right?

The difference is, that in first sentence "I am" an active object, I do the action.
In the second, "I am" a passive object, something is done to me, not by me.

Originally Posted by Pioner

Ok, still a little confusing, let's take work "to show"

I have been shown smth. - я показывал что-то
I have been being shown for 3 hours - меня показывали в течении трех часов.

Right?

The difference is, that in first sentence "I am" an active object, I do the action.
In the second, "I am" a passive object, something is done to me, not by me.

No, there is no such difference. In both sentences "I" is passive (or receptive? Can't remember the term).

я показывал что-то - I was showing something (to sb else)

Oh my God, I totally f***ed up! I mixed "I have driven" with "I have been driven", that was a long day for me, I work on building a very complicated database, please accept my appologies, and dismiss anything I wrote here about the subject.

Ok, Pioner, we forgive you... I was going to direct a tirade at you, but since you apologized I will hold my electronic pen... English is not an easy language!!! (but easier than Russian...)

Originally Posted by kwatts59

I asked a friend what is the gerund form of "to run", and he gave me a strange look and said "what the f--k are you talking about?"
I got a similar response when I asked about participles.

In Russian school (Russian for Russian native speaker) all grammatical terms are quite different. And it is not only translation of the same term in Russian but it is different structure of the terms which reflects grammatical specificity of the Russian language. For example as I know there is no gerund form in Russian as in English. I have never heard "gerund form", "participles" and etc. with reference to Russian. Only Russian teachers who teach Russian to foreigners know that.

participle сущ.; грам. причастие; деепричастие
active participle — активное причастие
passive participle — пассивное причастие
dangling participle — грам. деепричастный оборот
misrelated participle — грам.; брит. деепричастный оборот
past participle — грам. причастие прошедшего времени
perfect participle — грам. причастие совершенного вида
present participle — грам. причастие настоящего времени

gerund сущ.; грам. герундий (отглагольная форма, выполняющая синтаксические функции существительного - в латыни, английском языке)

As you can see "participle" = "1) причастие; 2) деепричастие" it is difficult to recognize what is "participle" in Russian if you used to "1) причастие; 2) деепричастие".

cases:
именительный падеж — nominative, subjective case
родительный падеж - genitive (case)
дательный падеж — dative (case)
винительный падеж — accusative (case)
творительный падеж — instrumental (case)
предложный - Prepositional (case)

спряжение ср.; грам. conjugation

склонение ср.; грам. declension

наречие ср.; грам. adverb

Помните, глаголы первого спряжения, глаголы второго спряжения; проспрягать глагол (проспрягать глагол — to conjugate a verb, to inflect a verb).
Существительные первого склонения, второго, третьего; просклонять существительное (to decline a noun).

неопределенная форма глагола — infinitive

существительное ср.; грам. noun, substantive
отглагольное существительное — verbal noun
неисчисляемое существительное — mass noun, uncountable noun исчисляемое существительное — count noun

Pioneer, I guess the root of your trouble is that you are confusing 2 forms. "driven" and "driving."

I have been driving = you are the driver.
I have been driven = someone else has driven you.

I have been being driven = I can't imaging a native speaker saying this. "Been being" just sounds wrong.

To quote an example from your earlier post:

Originally Posted by Pioneer

I have been driven to SF for 2 hours (я уже за рулем 2 часа, и все еще еду)

I guess you really meant "I have been driving to SF for 2 hours", right?

Do people around you often drop their gees in gerund/participle forms? "Drivin'" etc.?

Originally Posted by scotcher

No, there is no such difference. In both sentences "I" is passive (or receptive? Can't remember the term).

active voice- действительный залог
passive voice - страдательный залог

Yeah I know what they're called in Russian, but I was talking about English.

Originally Posted by Pioner

please accept my appologies

I will not. Your posts finally zapped out whatever literacy had been left in me. In fact, it's my dog typing.

On the subject

Originally Posted by kwatts59

If I ask the average Russian person a question like "why is the instrumental case used here instead of the genitive case?" would they understand the question?

Probably yes, if you ask them the question in Russian, but not very likely to the point of being able to answer it. Unless they are 12 and have not forgotten by now all the rules they studied in school. But then again, you can never overestimate the depths of ignorance.

Originally Posted by translations.nm.ru

Pioneer, I guess the root of your trouble is that you are confusing 2 forms. "driven" and "driving."

I have been driving = you are the driver.
I have been driven = someone else has driven you.

I have been being driven = I can't imaging a native speaker saying this. "Been being" just sounds wrong.

To quote an example from your earlier post:

Originally Posted by Pioneer

I have been driven to SF for 2 hours (я уже за рулем 2 часа, и все еще еду)

I guess you really meant "I have been driving to SF for 2 hours", right?

Do people around you often drop their gees in gerund/participle forms? "Drivin'" etc.?

yes, you may be right, just something went wrong in my mind.