Thread: demography in russia

Originally Posted by JB

A trip to the post office, ZAGS, or OVIR will reassure you that the old "apparatchiks" are still in charge.

If you are right, Russia has a bleak future IMO

Hey VM

May I ask you how old you are, because I used to think you as an old person who was grieving the old system, but now I have doubts

Don't feel obliged to answer.

Mord

Originally Posted by Geoduck

Let's not forget the 5-6 million peasants who died in the man-made famine of 1932-1933.

Famine wasn't man-made. It was bad year, which is periodic thing in Russia. There were many famines in the past, but surprisingly only last one of them is remembered, because it fits the theory about "evil Soviets". If harvest is tiny and help from outside is impossible due to iron curtain built by the west, someone would be hungry. The question is, would it be population of cities, where industry is situated, or peasants. Whom do you choose?

Originally Posted by Alex_Ivanov

and help from outside is impossible due to iron curtain built by the west,

.
The iron curtain was built by Soviets directly after World War 2, long after the famine.

Originally Posted by Mordan

May I ask you how old you are, because I used to think you as an old person who was grieving the old system, but now I have doubts

Mord

I am 14, going on 43.

Don't feel obliged to answer.

Thank you, your majesty.

Originally Posted by JB

VM is correct about the Soviet system being alive and well. Even though a trip to GUM or Mega Mall gives the illusion of American capitalism, you can experience the "good old days" at any government office. A trip to the post office, ZAGS, or OVIR will reassure you that the old "apparatchiks" are still in charge.

It's the first time we agree on something. Hallelujah!

Originally Posted by DDT

The iron curtain was built by Soviets directly after World War 2, long after the famine.

Not true. Western policy to isolate Soviet Russia (later USSR) was born in 1918. Soviets have nothing to do with it, even the term "iron curtain" was invented by Churchill, not by Soviets. How pacifist state, that tried to quit WWI by simply disbanding the whole army, turned into most armed state on the planet - it's a question to our western "friends".

Churchill made the frase popular but he did not invent it. If you actually believe that the west made the Curtain I don't know what to tell you since it is well known that the Soviet State would not let it's own people leave for the West but rather shoot them instead. Go ask anyone who has been to East Berlin or were those photos faked of the dead people hanging on the barbed wire and the blood only ketchup?

Originally Posted by DDT

Churchill made the frase popular but he did not invent it.

And who invented it?

If you actually believe that the west made the Curtain I don't know what to tell you since it is well known that the Soviet State would not let it's own people leave for the West but rather shoot them instead.

We talk about 1920s and 30s, there wasn't any "East Berlin" back then. Path of soviet state began with western intervention in 1918, when former WWI allies turn their weapons against Russia. Invaders were finally defeated, but west didn't recognise new state. All relations with SU were forbidden. It was some kind of embargo against "rogue state" (another western term).

BTW, it's "known fact" that SU cooperated with Germany before 1941 (and many blame SU for that), but it was made mainly because other western countries just refused to have any business with us due to ideological reasons.

Just read history book again, SU didn't isolate itself, it was isolated from the world by external forces.

Originally Posted by DDT

Churchill made the frase popular but he did not invent it.

I dunno dude all two of the history classes i had to take said churchill came up with it at some speach. he was like "there is like... like... An iron cutrain!" and everybody was like YAY.

Besides, what country did Russia ever invade? Russia was sucked into both WWI and II.

Originally Posted by Geoduck

In 1939 there were 3.5 million living in Siberian exile and gulag. There were 786,000 executed for "counter-revolutionary and state crimes" from 1930 to 1952. Yes, this is from uncovered NKVD files, there is your source.

My source are research performed by Victor Zemskov.
In Internet you can find some of them, for example, here:
http://www.contr-tv.ru/repress

Here is the quote:

"Существуют ли точные цифры жертв сталинских репрессий?

— Термин «репрессии» можно толковать по-разному. Я ограничиваюсь «политическими репрессиями», то есть теми гражданами, которым была инкриминирована статья 58 УК (контрреволюционная деятельность и другие тяжкие преступления против государства) и которые были приговорены к расстрелу или другим мерам наказания. С 1921 по 1953 год таких было около 4 млн. человек. Из них около 800 000 были приговорены к расстрелу. Кроме того, мы предполагаем, что около 600 000 умерли в тюрьме, так что общее число жертв достигает 1,4 млн. человек. "

and my (bad, I know translation :

"- Do the exact numbers of victims of Stalin's repressions exist?

— The term «repressions» may be interpreted differently. I'll restrict myself to «political repressions», e.g. citizens incriminated by article 58 of UK (counter-revolution activity and other serious crimes again state) and condemned to death and other means of punishment. From 1921 until 1953 there were 4 mln of such. Of them near 800 000 were condemned and shot; and we suppose, that near 600 000 died in prison, so total number of victims approximated 1,4 mln."

End of quote. I don't see much contradiction between you number and this one. Both are agreeing in what there just weren't "millions of victims" some people are talking about.

Originally Posted by Geoduck

Let's not forget the 5-6 million peasants who died in the man-made famine of 1932-1933.

I have a lot of doubts about "man-made" famine. It's just another myth.
Please look, what Alex_Ivanov wrote above.
I'll just have something to add: in XIX centure there were at least 3 (yes, three) famines of compareable scale -- but, surprisingly, no one is blaming tsarist governments for them. In XX century there was only *one* such famine -- and everyone is blaming Stalin personally, instead of trying to discover real reasons of this disaster!
What a shameless hypocrisy.

Originally Posted by Geoduck

Alec Nove, author of "Victims of Stalinism" places the number of total unnecessary death (from purges, collectivization) for the 1930's as a
whole at 10-11 million.

There's exactly where the historical truth ends and speculations begins.
"Unnecessary death", eh? How does he distinguish between "necesasary" and "unnecessary" death?
According to this logic, it's very easy to slander *any* state and *any* government in the world. Believe you in it or not, in any country people are dying everyday. Most of these death are, without doubts, quite unnecessary. Conclusion?

Originally Posted by Geoduck

After 1940, it is impossible to distinguish between war and terror deaths.

Yes, it *sometimes* not easy to make distinction.
However, I have a strong impression that your favorite author just don't want to make such distinction. It's just much easier to blame Stalin in everything what happens, right?

Originally Posted by Geoduck

BTW, everything is a myth if you don't believe in it. That doesn't mean it's a myth for anyone else.

The reverse is true also.
Everything can look as holy truth, if someone is ignorant enough to believe in it.
Only facing the real facts, some people begin to realize, that their "truth" was actually not more than myth.

Originally Posted by Geoduck

With that I end my input on this thread, the remaining can talk about becoming the new vanguard of the proletariat or whatever.

Oh. Too lame to comment.

Originally Posted by Scorpio

Only facing the real facts, some people begin to realize, that their "truth" was actually not more than myth.

How can you know the "real facts" ?

Can you believe in the official History books published by the USSR?

Originally Posted by Dogboy182

Originally Posted by DDT

Churchill made the frase popular but he did not invent it.

I dunno dude all two of the history classes i had to take said churchill came up with it at some speach. he was like "there is like... like... An iron cutrain!" and everybody was like YAY.

Besides, what country did Russia ever invade? Russia was sucked into both WWI and II.

Not that this is really important Mr. Dogboy, I mean where the frase came from but "wikipedia" says that some say it goes all the way back to Queen Elizabeth 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Curtain

I am not all that hip on History but I do remember when Soviet tanks were running around in Poland and the people in Wasaw risking their lives to tell them to "Hit the road Jack and don't you come back no more."

Also interestingly enough not everyone went "yay" after Chuchill's speech. I have discovered that Americans at that time thought that Churchill was too harsh. How about that for a twist?

That's what Walter Laqueur wrote in his book Europe in Our Time (1992):

< The term [iron curtain] was not invented by either Goebbels or Churchill, as commonly believed. The first use I have seen was in Ethel Snowden, Through Bolshevik Russia, New York-London, 1920: "We were behind the 'iron curtain' at last!" (p.32) >

По данным социологического опроса, проведенного компанией "Башкиров и партнеры", около 30% россиян не возражали бы, если бы Иосиф Сталин снова вернулся к руководству страной.

Originally Posted by scotcher

По данным социологического опроса, проведенного компанией "Башкиров и партнеры", около 30% россиян не возражали бы, если бы Иосиф Сталин снова вернулся к руководству страной.

When was this poll taken?

Nevermind. I didn't realise that I could click on it.

Originally Posted by Mordan

Can you believe in the official History books published by the USSR?

Can one believe the "official history books" (as you put it) published in the West? I guess not.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Originally Posted by Mordan

Can you believe in the official History books published by the USSR?

Can one believe the "official history books" (as you put it) published in the West? I guess not.

Typical of russian arguing strategy to reverse the question against the one who asked in the first place. Reminds of what Putin did to Bush a few days ago.

Nevertheless you non-answer shows the irony.

But the main point holds. One should not based his opinion on History with just a single source of information. While in the USSR there was only the official line of thought (even though you were free to think otherwise), in the West there are, I think, more than one source of information concerning History. Historians in the West are free to battle their line of thoughts without the interference of the political police.