Thread: demography in russia

vendingmachine

Just give him a visa invite to your city and then arrest him. Problem solved.

Originally Posted by Dogboy182

vendingmachine

Just give him a visa invite to your city and then arrest him. Problem solved.

He hasn't broken any Russian law yet.

Oh come on. Now you are playing KGB agent. You know you want to arrest him for bribe money, I can see it in your eyes!


Actually, what you could do is take him in for questioning... Hold him untill his visa expires, THEN arrest him.

He's only small fry, let him swim around and put on some fat.... But thanks for your concern, Dogboy.

[quotersirldm]She acknowledged however how inefficient was the soviet economic system.

That's entirely her own assessment and I disagree with her. Our economic system was very efficient indeed and superior to any other nation's.[/quotersirldm]

Wow, superior to any other nation you say?

Explain to me why your GNP is 6500$ or so while Belgium has 28 000$ and US 33 000$

[quotersirldm]A centralized management is terribly inefficient.

I disagree. It is the ultimate you can gain in efficiency. Unless, of course, it's being handled by complete muppets.[/quotersirldm]

Don't you see the complete paradox of what you are saying...
There will be always "complete muppets", especially when a system treats everyone equally, as centralized communism is supposed to...

My take is that is should be a balance. I never meant above that some centralization is never good.

[quotersirldm]She told me about the free water supply in her free flat.

She was having you on. At no point did anyone in the Soviet Union have "free water supply" or "free flats", even high-ranking party officials. (You can take that from me, Mordon)[/quotersirldm]

I don't believe you. Explain to me why Russians are taking the street because the free doctors and public transports are being replaced (maybe the only sensible reform Putin (and his counselors) ever thought of.

[quotersirldm]State own companies tend to get fat, slack and lazy.

You have a different mindset where you come from. State ownership wouldn't work for you.[/quotersirldm]

Indeed it won't. Because the state cannot be trusted. I would only trust the state if I can control it by way of referendums and elections. And basically any country that keeps the companies, supposed to be privately funded, state owned is gonna get CRUSHED by the other ones.
Some sectors are I believe supposed to be supported by the state, which is controlled by the people through (e-)democracy. Education is such a sector. That does not mean private schools should be closed down.

[quotersirldm]I'm totally convinced educated citizen controled capitalism is the best system.

I disagree.[/quotersirldm]

Your right. While in your superb and magnificient soviet system, you could only agree with the party line... great.

[quotersirldm]And it is no wonder to me that the soviet system lost to the US capitalist system.

It never did. All the old party bosses are in their places. The same people as during the Soviet Times. The Soviet system did not loose, it is simply putting on new clothes. You remind me of the French of 1812 who were triumphant when Mr Koutouzoff let them have Moscow, but after that retreated in order to deal a fatal blow to Napoleon's army. Russia is full of surprises, but it takes one with a deep knowledge of our culture to understand that. You do not have that knowledge.[/quotersirldm]

Full of surprises yes...
I still hold you live in lalala land. The soviet system per se lost, like it or not. Those old apparatchiks will soon die.

[quotersirldm]And I'm happy the US invaded my country. I don't really care.

You're a traitor, me lad.[/quotersirldm]

You, like Bush, make good use of a black and white understanding of things.

[quotersirldm]That's thanks to their invasion (big stretch but It can be done) I'm educated and that I have an interesting job.

You'd make a perfect slave, Mordan. I'll make a note of that.[/quotersirldm]

Again, a manichean view of the world. Never heard of the Roman empire? We would still be barbarians would it not be for the Roman conquests.

[quotersirldm]if you manage to get a visa of course (i heard russian students were refused a visa for Bratislava)

Already have one (a multiple entry business visa) and I'm not a student.[/quotersirldm]

I was referring to the russian students who were refused a visa for Bratislava. Don't you see what I meant here? It means that unless you follow the official line of thought, you are not considered a russian citizen with the same rights as others.

[quotersirldm]And please stop playing the KGB agent

Playing a KGB agent? What are you talking about. (I can see you didn't do your homework, for the KGB is no more)
[/quotersirldm]

FSB, KGB, same things, except KGB is better known.

I thought you would know what I'm talking about.

Well, what I have to say about the Soviet system is this. Astronomical numbers of eggs were broken to make a mediocre omelet that didn't last more than 40 years. Let's keep everything in the perspective - that any moderate benefit the Soviet system provided in the 60's, 70's and 80's were

A) bought at the unnecessary cost of millions of innocent lives who died in the purges.

B) not sustainable, as corrupt bureaucrats as a rule fudged quota reports, costing the state lost resources while still paying departments full price.

Now that Soviet records have gone public, economists have calculated that the only think keeping the Soviet economy afloat for the 40 years of peace was the export of oil.

The truth is that people were so used to the horrors of WWII and the purges, that by the Cold War, no one had the strength to question the loss of rights in light of the meager comforts Soviet economy provided society.

For those who would like to return to the USSR.... just look where reactionary policy has gotten Russia in the past. Alexander III, Nicholas II....? Not exactly history's highest-regarded figures. Also, ask yourself why Peter and Catherine are called "the Great" by Russians. Is it because they rejected the West and stubbornly insisted on returning to a past that was no longer feasible in a modern world? hmmmmmm........

Originally Posted by Mordan

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Originally Posted by Mordan

But you got to admit that 50 years of hardcore communism does not help...

Communism? Who had communism? We were building communism but we never had it, what we did have was our own (I think superior) version of socialism.

Well it was not superior since it has disappeared.

Originally Posted by Mordan

Such logic is extremely primitive.
The ancient Egypt, Assiria, Persia or the Roman Empire were superior states of their time. But they have collapsed anyway...

BTW, VM is right. The political system of former USSR is *socialism*, not "communism".

Originally Posted by Mordan

It is competition and the failing of the weak that made you the human you are.).

Such ideology is called "social darwinism", right?

Originally Posted by Mordan

On another note have you seen the Lord of the Rings?
Then you should know that Power corrupts after awhile.

Good thing you remembered LOTR. Yes, absolute power corrupts, nobody argues. And, more important, such power corrupts *everybody*, not only bad, but either good ones. Remember, why Gandalf refused to take the Ring from Frodo?

Originally Posted by Mordan

And you would know your country was most of the time a dictaroship where freedom was restricted.

First, after Stalin's death Soviet Union no way was a "dictatorship". Oligarchy, maybe.

Second, the Russia (and then USSR) was, probably, the final country on the Earth, where everybody have total and almost unrestricted freedom. At least, in principle.

Disagree with existing political system? Not happy living in society? Well, you're free to go to Siberia, and create your own modest personal state, 100km*100km in size. And nobody is about to stop you -- mostly because nobody will notice it. Show me any other existing state with *such* degree of freedom!
Of course, in your private state you'll immediately face certain little problems (honestly, I much doubt you'll survive for long). But it's YOUR problems, right? Freedom requires victims.

Originally Posted by Mordan

I do have an idea. I know an Ukrainian who swears to me Soviet times were way better during soviet times. But you know what? She was a member of the party!!! How biased is that view? How can you have a balanced opinion when you are part of the privileged class... You can't.

Do you really think the ordinary member of the Party is member of some priveleged class?!
The almost only "privelege" they had was much greater responcibility than ordinary citizens.

Originally Posted by Mordan

She acknowledged however how inefficient was the soviet economic system. A centralized management is terribly inefficient...

This depends from *what* and *how* you're managing.
Try to read any good book about economics.

Originally Posted by Mordan

I'm totally convinced educated citizen controled capitalism is the best system. And it is no wonder to me that the soviet system lost to the US capitalist system. And I'm happy the US invaded my country. I don't really care. That's thanks to their invasion (big stretch but It can be done)

I'm intrigued.
What country you're living in?

Originally Posted by Mordan

I'm educated and that I have an interesting job. It is also thanks to the US the world has a bright future, a future where human will be able to be totally free and choose their own nature, emotions and future.

Try telling this to victims of American occupation. For example, Iraquis.

Originally Posted by Mordan

And please stop playing the KGB agent .

I guess, "KGB agent" is anybody who disagrees with you.

Please don't get into the American occupation of Iraq. I'm sure there are some of them upset that we are there. But most of them are happy that they will finally be free. Even with the pressure from the insurgency they had a high voter turn out.

Oh yea Mordan I think VM's right you would make a good slave.

Mordan, please scroll down to the PS first.

Wow, superior to any other nation you say?
Explain to me why your GNP is 6500$ or so while Belgium has 28 000$ and US 33 000$

I don't want your wishful thinking. Don't give me ballpark figures off a stoned aqualung-sporting Yeti's khyber, I'm not interested. Give me the real thing.

Don't you see the complete paradox of what you are saying...
There will be always "complete muppets", especially when a system treats everyone equally, as centralized communism is supposed to...

Naivity at its utmost. OK, I'll put it down to your lack of experience with a communism-oriented society.

I don't believe you. Explain to me why Russians are taking the street because the free doctors and public transports are being replaced (maybe the only sensible reform Putin (and his counselors) ever thought of.

"Free doctors" aren't being replaced with anything or anyone - they are the same as yesterday. What you're talking about is a system of benefits, which includes (used to include) free transport for pensioners, discounted medicine and discounts for certain bills, like phones and elecky bills.- discounts, not "free water supply". Obviously, you've heard something about what's happening in Russia at the moment, but as hundreds of times before you just couldn't be arsed to learn about the whole thing in detail. Doesn't do you credit.

And basically any country that keeps the companies, supposed to be privately funded, state owned is gonna get CRUSHED by the other ones.

We are different. You crush, we create.

Your right. While in your superb and magnificient soviet system, you could only agree with the party line... great.

Brainwashed that you are, you have no idea as to how it REALLY was in the Soviet Union. For me and millions of other happy Soviet Citizens it was GREAT. (Think about it - if it had been different, history wouldn't've turned out the way it did.) The majority of the people in the Soviet Union were prosperous and happy, in the meantime, you were being lured into slave labour with stories about "horrors of communism".

I still hold you live in lalala land. The soviet system per se lost, like it or not. Those old apparatchiks will soon die.

Lost? Think whatever you wish, in the mean time "those old apparatchiks" are buying and selling your entrails the way they always have. This "lalala" land of mine made me a rich man - no matter how high-paid a job you get in your "free" country, I can always pay you twice as much. Accept it - those "old apparatchiks" are hung as donkeys and are breeding like rabbits - yes, some day they will die, but their children will carry the torch.

You, like Bush, make good use of a black and white understanding of things.

Yes, certain things are like that: you can't be a wee bit up pregnant - you're either pregnant, or you're not. Similarly you can't "betray your country a little" - you're either a traitor or not a traitor.

I was referring to the russian students who were refused a visa for Bratislava. Don't you see what I meant here? It means that unless you follow the official line of thought, you are not considered a russian citizen with the same rights as others.

Hello, anybody home? What's that got to do with our gov't? It's the Slovakian officials who turned their applications down, so what's it got to do with us then, eh? Make yourself clear, could you?

I thought you would know what I'm talking about.

No, I've not the foggiest. What are you on about, Mordan?

P.S. I hope you're not taking this slightly heated discussion personally, Mordan. My arguements apply not to you personally, but rather to an "abstract person from the West" as I know him/her.

Also, ask yourself why Peter and Catherine are called "the Great" by Russians. Is it because they rejected the West and stubbornly insisted on returning to a past that was no longer feasible in a modern world? hmmmmmm........

We certainly do not call Peter the Great "great" - that's what you call him, we call him "Peter the 1st" (Пётр Первый) - only paid sycophants would call him "Peter the Great". Many Russian historians have spoken about him as a feudal barbarian who made the plight of the Russian peasant so much worse.

Such logic is extremely primitive.
The ancient Egypt, Assiria, Persia or the Roman Empire were superior states of their time. But they have collapsed anyway...

Well it is. But still relevant.

And anyway Roman Empire was superior until it itself changed.

Originally Posted by Mordan

It is competition and the failing of the weak that made you the human you are.).

Such ideology is called "social darwinism", right?

Yea indeed. And for the coming decades capitalism is going to be the prevalent social model, like it or not. Better adapt or die...

Originally Posted by Mordan

On another note have you seen the Lord of the Rings?
Then you should know that Power corrupts after awhile.

Good thing you remembered LOTR. Yes, absolute power corrupts, nobody argues. And, more important, such power corrupts *everybody*, not only bad, but either good ones. Remember, why Gandalf refused to take the Ring from Frodo?

Reason why democracy is inherently better than oligarchy as was praticed in the USSR. I'm afraid most Russians don't want to see that.

I'm intrigued.
What country you're living in?

Belgium, Europe

Originally Posted by Mordan

I'm educated and that I have an interesting job. It is also thanks to the US the world has a bright future, a future where human will be able to be totally free and choose their own nature, emotions and future.

Try telling this to victims of American occupation. For example, Iraquis.

http://www.iraqthemodel.com/
http://www.iraqthemodel.com/
http://www.iraqthemodel.com/
http://www.iraqthemodel.com/
http://www.iraqthemodel.com/
http://www.iraqthemodel.com/

Go see what the average educated Iraqui think of the US invasion...

The blogger loves it, like it or not. His salary as a dentist more than tripled.

yea of course he is not a victim. But for peace, you need to make war. Again I can take the Roman Empire argument. I would say the US is a new Roman Empire. They 'conquer' you (mostly culturally, sometimes physically but only for a short while) for your own good.

Originally Posted by Mordan

And please stop playing the KGB agent .

I guess, "KGB agent" is anybody who disagrees with you.

[/quote]
You can't understand hehe it is a thing between VM and me...

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Also, ask yourself why Peter and Catherine are called "the Great" by Russians. Is it because they rejected the West and stubbornly insisted on returning to a past that was no longer feasible in a modern world? hmmmmmm........

We certainly do not call Peter the Great "great" - that's what you call him, we call him "Peter the 1st" (Пётр Первый) - only paid sycophants would call him "Peter the Great". Many Russian historians have spoken about him as a feudal barbarian who made the plight of the Russian peasant so much worse.

There is definitely an unbreachable cultural devide between us... is it you or for all the russians, including young ones?

ah btw

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2 ... 2/001.html

and I'm confident that the free water is a true story.

Well, the great thing about being belligerent is that no matter what argument presents itself, you can find a way to disagree with it.

You'll probably find a way to disagree with something in this post. I Can't believe that we can't have a mature conversation about this.

The Soviet system wasn't destroyed in a war, its own citizens overwhelmingly opted to change it. Why would they do that if they were content?

So now, what more is there to say?

Mordan

There is definitely an unbreachable cultural devide between us...

I've been saying this since we started with this discussion. Glad you're finally beginning to see it.

is it you or for all the russians, including young ones?

Yes, matey, the overwhelming majority of Russians, including the young ones, think along the lines I've outlined.

ah btw

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2 ... 2/001.html
and I'm confident that the free water is a true story.

Two points:
a) moscow times is the most lie-mongering rag I've ever had the misfortune to glance through
b) the translation there is appauling - they just translate, they don't explain cultural references. If you were Russian you'd know that "free housing" doesn't mean you don't pay anything at the end of the month, it simply means you get onto a waiting list without having to pay (in some cases you even jump ahead of someone) outlandish sums, but once you have your "free housing" you pay every month. If you're an old age pensioner you're not expected to pay for everything in full, you get discounts on many bills, but still there's no such thing as "free water" or "free elecky". My granny is an old age pensioner and I bloody well know how much she pays for her flat, so don't you go telling me that BS about "free water". Obviously, you know sod all about the true state of affairs in my country. Thanks for demonstrating that again.

Geoduck
The soviet system was never destroyed - whoever believes the opposite must be very naive. Come to Russia and see for yourself - the soviet system is alive and kicking, regardless of whatever BS your horrible propaganda officers are feeding you. I challange you to come to St Pete and go to any store, any post office, talk to people in the street - the soviet system is alive as ever.

And remember this - no honest hard-working Russian citizen ever opted to have the system changed and probably never will.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Geoduck

The soviet system was never destroyed - whoever believes the opposite must be very naive.

And remember this - no honest hard-working Russian citizen ever opted to have the system changed and probably never will.

I told you that you would find a way to disagree.

I'd be really curious to know exactly what you mean by "alive and kicking". Maybe you can tell us about aliens and wizards too, while you're at it.

Originally Posted by Geoduck

Well, what I have to say about the Soviet system is this. Astronomical numbers of eggs were broken to make a mediocre omelet that didn't last more than 40 years. Let's keep everything in the perspective - that any moderate benefit the Soviet system provided in the 60's, 70's and 80's were

A) bought at the unnecessary cost of millions of innocent lives who died in the purges.

B) not sustainable, as corrupt bureaucrats as a rule fudged quota reports, costing the state lost resources while still paying departments full price.

Myths, myths, myths.
First, there weren't "millions of innocent lives who died in the purges". 2-3 millions of prisoners as maximum. Ans not all of them were so innocent, BTW.

Originally Posted by Geoduck

Now that Soviet records have gone public, economists have calculated that the only think keeping the Soviet economy afloat for the 40 years of peace was the export of oil.

Ah, these mysterious and anomimous "experts" again.
I wonder, how they calculated it.
And, even if so, how "Soviet economy" was afloat for remaining 34 years?

Originally Posted by Geoduck

The truth is that people were so used to the horrors of WWII and the purges, that by the Cold War, no one had the strength to question the loss of rights in light of the meager comforts Soviet economy provided society.

So, Soviet economy did provide some "meager comforts" at last?

Originally Posted by Geoduck

For those who would like to return to the USSR.... just look where reactionary policy has gotten Russia in the past. Alexander III, Nicholas II....? Not exactly history's highest-regarded figures. Also, ask yourself why Peter and Catherine are called "the Great" by Russians. Is it because they rejected the West and stubbornly insisted on returning to a past that was no longer feasible in a modern world? hmmmmmm........

Alexander III: I regard him quite high. The years of his rule were years of serious economic prosperity. If I remember right, essential part of russian railroad network, for example, was built in his time.

Nicholas II: yes, here I agree. Extremely weak and impotent rules. It always amazed me, how some people try to depict him as "innocent victim".

Both Peter and Yekaterina are deserving to be called "the Great", IMHO. Probably, in Peter's case the cost was too high. This is debatable.
But claiming Peter (definitely most "pro-western" ruler in all russian history) "rejected the West"? Are you serious or kidding?!

VM is correct about the Soviet system being alive and well. Even though a trip to GUM or Mega Mall gives the illusion of American capitalism, you can experience the "good old days" at any government office. A trip to the post office, ZAGS, or OVIR will reassure you that the old "apparatchiks" are still in charge.

In 1939 there were 3.5 million living in Siberian exile and gulag. There were 786,000 executed for "counter-revolutionary and state crimes" from 1930 to 1952. Yes, this is from uncovered NKVD files, there is your source.

Let's not forget the 5-6 million peasants who died in the man-made famine of 1932-1933.

Alec Nove, author of "Victims of Stalinism" places the number of total unnecessary death (from purges, collectivization) for the 1930's as a whole at 10-11 million. After 1940, it is impossible to distinguish between war and terror deaths.

BTW, everything is a myth if you don't believe in it. That doesn't mean it's a myth for anyone else.

With that I end my input on this thread, the remaining can talk about becoming the new vanguard of the proletariat or whatever.