Thread: Chechen bastard Basayev Killed in Southern Russia

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Child murder is the most terrible crime you can commit.

Yeah, that's the truism. But, actually, why?

Originally Posted by joysof

Don't spit on our dreams, adoc.

Sure thing, kiddo, keep on trolling. I don't have dreams as I am not asleep.

Originally Posted by joysof

I'm not quite ready to retreat into moral equivocality - and nor should a good fellow like you.

"Good" also need a definition. My experience shows that this is being a completely different concept from person to person.
(Just grumbling)

[quote:3b7c6cx5]Nobody talks about victory

Putin talks about victory in the same way Bush does. Remember that 'international terrorists' is a euphemistic phrase for 'the Chechen separatists we haven't killed yet'.[/quote:3b7c6cx5]

True, but Putin is just a man like anybody else. Spare him this slips. Noone's perfect.
On the whole I think too that terrorists must be killed and separatism - confronted.

Originally Posted by adoc

Sure thing, kiddo, keep on trolling. I don't have dreams as I am not asleep.

What a great jaded bundle of emptiness you must be, in that case

Really now, fellow: these things are much more fun if you actually enter into the debate rather than throwing pebbles from the sidelines.

Originally Posted by Ramil

separatism - confronted.

Really, all of it? Even where the separatists pursue their ends in a (relatively) civilised manner? Even if, say, Scotcher wanted to dissolve the Act of Union?

I still think you're a good fellow, despite your semantic concerns.

Originally Posted by TATY

Have you not ever thought that there is stuff your government doesn't tell you, or is trying to put a positive spin on.

Have you?

Russian people don't build up their opinion based on TV news. I've never met anyone who did. So quoting the media is pointless - how do you know whether that article or TV-program is true? Russians like no one else know what propaganda and brain washing mean. So the trust for the media information is lost.

Originally Posted by joysof

Originally Posted by Ramil

separatism - confronted.

Really, all of it? Even where the separatists pursue their ends in a (relatively) civilised manner? Even if, say, Scotcher wanted to dissolve the Act of Union?

So they ARE confronted in a civilised manner.
But if they would begin to bomb people they would be dealt correspondingly.

Originally Posted by Ramil

So they ARE confronted in a civilised manner.
But if they would begin to bomb people they would be dealt correspondingly.

Well, quite.

I'm not a member of the Shamil Basayev Appreciation Society.

And do you know what's strange? In the days when I favoured this forum with my presence far more often than I do now, I often found myself unfairly typecast as an old curmudgeon. Now it seems I'm a trolling teenager in the popular imagination. A guy could get an identity crisis...

Originally Posted by Ramil

Russian people don't build up their opinion based on TV news.

I've heard this from Russians before and I applaud the sentiment. But how exactly do you build up an opinion? Could anybody (Ramil?) furnish me with a list of sources which people are generally inclined to trust?

Originally Posted by joysof

Originally Posted by Ramil

Russian people don't build up their opinion based on TV news.

I've heard this from Russians before and I applaud the sentiment. But how exactly do you build up an opinion? Could anybody (Ramil?) furnish me with a list of sources which people are generally inclined to trust?

The Washington Post, Guradian, Boston Globe, The Times, New York Times and other Western newspapers. I read articles and compare their information with real life in Russia. Usually it seems like shitfall. Also I discovered 5 demagogical instruments of western journalists:
1) careless citing;
2) appeal to the feelings, not to the facts;
3) careless comparison;
4) cutting facts;
5) inadmissible analogues;
I don't read russian newspapers and watch russian tv. But I mean they use like methods.
If you want to find truth then you should scrutinize all viewpoints (and I talk not about "independet" mass media). You should know what your opponent is interesting in.

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying you use these Western newspapers as sources of information, but still don't trust them? Are they the best of a bad lot?

You should know what your opponent is interesting in.

I didn't understand this bit either.

Originally Posted by joysof

Originally Posted by Ramil

Russian people don't build up their opinion based on TV news.

I've heard this from Russians before and I applaud the sentiment. But how exactly do you build up an opinion? Could anybody (Ramil?) furnish me with a list of sources which people are generally inclined to trust?

My eyes, my ears.
That's about all.
Also even if you watch TV or read newspapers you tend to "read beween the lines".
It's from our former Soviet experience, i think. We always suspect the worst in people.

When something happens - I look for anybody who is taking advantage over the situation.
That's the primary suspect.

When they're telling me about some plane crash in Southern Africa I say - maybe.
When they begin telling me why this happenned, I say - I don't know.
When thay say something about the facts i can gain proof for - I say the facts are: ...

Originally Posted by joysof

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Child murder is the most terrible crime you can commit.

Yeah, that's the truism. But, actually, why?

You really need a reason? How about the fact that they are defenseless, that they are not partial to anybody's cause apart from loving their parents, they have no understanding of the world, its dangers and issues. They are just brutally removed from their child-world (you have been a child yourself, and might appreciate how life was so much happier and easier then) not even given a chance to take a stand of their own.

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

How about the fact that they are defenseless

Have you ever met a child? Belligerent little sods, especially the boy 'uns. If they jump on your face while you're reading the paper, you'll know it.

not partial to anybody's cause apart from loving their parents

Of course they are. They're partial to cyberpets, Christina Aguilera, fizzy drinks, violence and dope, some of them. Amongst other things. I think your warm and fuzzy sense of the little blighters displays a lack of recent proximity to them.

they have no understanding of the world

Ineffably patronising. Some of the smartest people I know are children.

Look, killing kids is wrong. But so was executing Timothy McVeigh. Moral relativism is a dangerous thing when we're talking about people's lives. Even Shamil's.

Originally Posted by joysof

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

How about the fact that they are defenseless

Have you ever met a child? Belligerent little sods, especially the boy 'uns. If they jump on your face while you're reading the paper, you'll know it.

not partial to anybody's cause apart from loving their parents

Of course they are. They're partial to cyberpets, Christina Aguilera, fizzy drinks, violence and dope, some of them. Amongst other things. I think your warm and fuzzy sense of the little blighters displays a lack of recent proximity to them.

[quote:37tghdfp]they have no understanding of the world

Ineffably patronising. Some of the smartest people I know are children.

Look, killing kids is wrong. But so was executing Timothy McVeigh. Moral relativism is a dangerous thing when we're talking about people's lives. Even Shamil's.[/quote:37tghdfp]

Killer arguments, matey, killer.

You are saying that the death of Mussolini is just as bad as the rape, killing and partition of a child aged 6.

Originally Posted by joysof

Look, killing kids is wrong. But so was executing Timothy McVeigh. Moral relativism is a dangerous thing when we're talking about people's lives. Even Shamil's.

Тяжёлый случай, скорее всего безнадёжный

Поздравляю всех с праздником -- каким, думаю, для каждого нормального человека является смерть этого выродка. Чтоб ему на том свете было потеплее, вернее пожарче.

Хотел было ввязаться в спор -- но ей богу, не буду. Не стоит он того. Просто не понимаю, как можно было публично защищать этого гада.

Originally Posted by Scorpio

Просто не понимаю, как можно было публично защищать этого гада.

Oh for crying out loud.

Я не защищаю Басаева. Просто предостерегал от обычного одностороннего подхода к чеченскому вопросу на здешнем форуме. Видимо, напрасно.

С праздником.

You are saying that the death of Mussolini is just as bad as the rape, killing and partition of a child aged 6.

I'm quite aware that that's what I'm saying.

Originally Posted by joysof

Yond after all our u are saying that the death of Mussolini is just as bad as the rape, killing and partition of a child aged 6.

I'm quite aware that that's what I'm saying.

Finally we are at the very crux of this matter! This is what it's all about, folks.
This line of reasoning that Joysof has presented here is the real depravity. Not the death of a murderer.

You see when you suscribe to the belief that there is no difference between killing a murderer and killing the innocent because all killing is bad, you have given up the one thing that makes humans different to animals. Our ability to reason, to discern, to make a judgment between right and wrong. After all, denying that humans are capable of making a decision between write and wrong does not alter the fact that there exists right and wrong or good and evil.

So if you cannot or will not make that distinction then you are no better than an animal yourself.

For thousands of years humans in general have generally agreed on what "good" is. It is only in this day and age that some people are questioning what "good" is and who should be allowed to make that decision. This is a very slippery slope for humanity to get into and can only lead to complete anarchy and even more violence (that Joysof seeks to avoid).

We live in a faulty and evil world where we can not always do "good" things in order to be "right". Sometimes we must kill in order to be "Good"...................As it was once written
"All that is needed for Evil to reign is for good men to sit idle."

Humanity must continue to be permitted to make this distinction between the "good guys" and the "bad guys". To not do so is depravity.