Thread: Bleak article about Russia

My dear western ignorami friends, it is time to learn the truth about this glorious country. I invite you all - please come to this great country and see for yourself. I will personally see to it that you like your experience here.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

My dear western ignorami friends, it is time to learn the truth about this glorious country. I invite you all - please come to this great country and see for yourself. I will personally see to it that you like your experience here.

I understand what you're saying, VM... but get off your "high horse" about Russia. I know you dislike Westerners, and me, but...

Yep... I've seen some bad stuff in rural Russia... but you've definitely got a "chip on your shoulder", against the U.S.

Siberia is the heart of Russia... more resources and potential than any Western nation... if I could promise you that Russia would benefit equally as a true and fair partner in harvesting Siberia, (timber, precious metals) would you agree?

IF!!!... I could guarantee that the USA would assist and become true partners with Russian businesses, with NO imperialistic actions by the corporations... would you agree that partnerships could be constructed between Russian and U.S. companies to harvest Siberian resources?

Or would you always hate anything Western, and refuse any possibility of
doing business with anything Western?

There comes a time when a business partnership (when all survive) is much better than waste.

VM... you're ignoring the long-term situation... but I expect that you will disagree with me because you've disagreed with me in the past. Because I am Westerner (U.S.), will you always refuse to do business with me?? Even if it is a good business decision?

Even if that business may save and feed your family, friends and workers? Because you're dealing with "Dobry"? (VM and I have had our differences)

Difficult choice. But this is a choice of Russian and U.S. cooperation.

Personally, I prefer constructing business partnerships, to harvest the natural resources in Russia, with protection/preservation for the Russian ecology. Benefit both nations, protect the Russian wilderness, and solidify business friendship.

I'm a dreamer... but it is very possible, certainly.

Think of it as the difference between hunting a wolf alone... or with a companion.

VM ate his companion ( and companion's wife) :P

Originally Posted by Lt. Columbo

VM ate his companion ( and companion's wife) :P

Originally Posted by Dobry

I know you dislike Westerners, and me, but...

I do not dislike Westerners, otherwise I wouldn't be here. Alright, me laddo?

Originally Posted by Dobry

Or would you always hate anything Western, and refuse any possibility of doing business with anything Western?

I have been, am and intend to go on doing business with Westerners.

Originally Posted by Dobry

Think of it as the difference between hunting a wolf alone... or with a companion. Wink

There's only one tiny minute detail which you're overlooking - the wolf is not yours, it roams not in your wood but in mine. You're welcome to come to this wood and look at this wolf and stroke its fur but you're not allowed to come and hunt it. By the same token I'm not allowed to come to your pond and catch your shrimp.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Originally Posted by Dobry

Think of it as the difference between hunting a wolf alone... or with a companion. Wink

There's only one tiny minute detail which you're overlooking - the wolf is not yours, it roams not in your wood but in mine. You're welcome to come to this wood and look at this wolf and stroke its fur but you're not allowed to come and hunt it. By the same token I'm not allowed to come to your pond and catch your shrimp.

I understand, VM.

But sometimes it is good to have a companion and friend to watch your back. Your wolf can easily sneak up and attack a single person. With a companion, your wolf has much more difficulty. And maybe... I have a rifle that will kill your wolf... a rifle you don't know...

And, if I could choose... I would choose to let you catch as much shrimp as you need, from my sea. Take a few lobsters also... I want my friends to be fed. Understand?

Trust... it is all about trust... and trust must begin at the beginning... the most basic needs. If you trust me enough... I will hand you a good rifle to kill the wolf... save your flock... and we both eat.

We trust each other... share with each other... we live.
We don't trust each other... we die.
Basic survival.

If I can squeeze my post between the wolves and the rabid shrimp...

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

kalinka_vinnie, you do not understand this coutry very well.

Well, now that is a killer argument that has "I give up" written all over it. In neon.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Aye, sir, it is illogical. But you know what? I used your very own sentence, your very own so-called logic - I simply swapped American/Norwegian for Russian. There's a good Russian proverb that applies here, but I'd better keep it to myself for fear you might faint.

I think you need to clean your glasses, VM, my previous post explained in plain English why your logic fails. If you want, I can copy and paste into this post again so that you won't miss it this time.

Originally Posted by Kalinka_Vinnie

You see, my conclusions are based on pure logic. I have experienced Russian life, its hazards, as well as western life, with its hazards. I know people in both countries, I know their family histories. Based on this knowledge plus statistics given from NGOs, UN, etc. etc. who can arguably be called reliable (I mean, why would they say things were better in the Soviet Union than now? Are they communists, pray?) I come to a very logical conclusion. You have no basis for your arguments. They are ultimately flawed.

Apply your Russian proverbs, bridgekeeper, I am not afraid!

We are practically a big family already.

Originally Posted by Dobry

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Originally Posted by Dobry

Think of it as the difference between hunting a wolf alone... or with a companion. Wink

There's only one tiny minute detail which you're overlooking - the wolf is not yours, it roams not in your wood but in mine. You're welcome to come to this wood and look at this wolf and stroke its fur but you're not allowed to come and hunt it. By the same token I'm not allowed to come to your pond and catch your shrimp.

I understand, VM.

But sometimes it is good to have a companion and friend to watch your back. Your wolf can easily sneak up and attack a single person. With a companion, your wolf has much more difficulty. And maybe... I have a rifle that will kill your wolf... a rifle you don't know...

And, if I could choose... I would choose to let you catch as much shrimp as you need, from my sea. Take a few lobsters also... I want my friends to be fed. Understand?

Trust... it is all about trust... and trust must begin at the beginning... the most basic needs. If you trust me enough... I will hand you a good rifle to kill the wolf... save your flock... and we both eat.

We trust each other... share with each other... we live.
We don't trust each other... we die.
Basic survival.

Actually I would rather you gave us drilling technology. There are enough rifles in Russia

You are right it's all about trust. But the West doesn't seem to trust anyone that isn't part of the West. And that's just the problem. Everyone else is either seen as uncivilised (19th centuary) or undemocratic (20th centuary), or whatever.

There was plenty of trust in the 90's, but we all know how that turned out didn't we? Again, after 9/11, Putin extended his hand only for it to be abused.

While this may be simplifying the situation, you cannot pin this thing all on us. All that Russia ever got from Europe is invasions (and a few cultural bits and bobs). And Europe seems to pronounce Russia guilty until proven innocent on everything it does.

If we could start over, and build our trust on mutual respect (i.e. not trying to force each others way of life on each other), then I would be the first to sign up. But with the current state of afairs in the world, it's unlikely to happen

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Can you be more specific of what is cr@p and bias in the article?...
To us it seems like you just don't want to hear bad news, isntead of doing something about it!

What I would like to add...
This is not bad news but well-known facts in Russia.
The Soviet press usually told the truth about the West, too... well, you know... unemployment, economic crisis, homeless people etc. But if you tell a part of the truth, this becomes propaganda. Vinnie, of course you are right. There are a lot of problems in Russia. You lived here and you saw our problems. And I'm sure you like Russia a lot (viking's genes ). But agree with me, there are some differences between criticism and propaganda. Unfortunately, articles about Russia in western newspapers look like "enemy propaganda". That's why you can see so many opponents here. That's why we don't discuss our problems here. Here we defend our motherland.
If this topic had started with your question about one of our problem, I think we would have started flaying our authorities, police etc. But this topic started with a western article. It looked like the order "Fire!"

Well, now that is a killer argument that has "I give up" written all over it. In neon.

Yes, I give up - I cannot argue with a man who doesn't want to understand.

I think you need to clean your glasses, VM, my previous post explained in plain English why your logic fails. If you want, I can copy and paste into this post again so that you won't miss it this time.

I think it is you who should do it - I find it truely amazing that you construct an argument yourself but can't really follow it when a similar argument is being directed at you.

Apply your Russian proverbs, bridgekeeper, I am not afraid!

First asnwer this question, knigget - African or European swallow?

Too many times we've been told lies by all these "dobries" out there and now they're talking about "mutual trust". We know who our friends are - they don't have to suck up to us all of a sudden.

VendingMachine, че-то ты совсем разошелся! Поменьше наездов, побольше аргументов!

ЗЫ. А Калинку не обижай, он понимает в российской жизни побольше некоторых, хоть и со своей колокольни.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

VendingMachine, че-то ты совсем разошелся! Поменьше наездов, побольше аргументов!

Аргументов я приводил более достаточно. Человек уперелся голову в стену и не хочет посмотреть иначе на людей и на ситуацию.

ЗЫ. А Калинку не обижай, он понимает в российской жизни побольше некоторых, хоть и со своей колокольни.

Он разбирается в реалиях этой страны как, например, я разбираюсь в процессах обработки китового уса. В этой стране он, увы, никогда не был, и я это уже доказывал как-то давно тут. Но самое страшное не его незнание (зание можно преобрести, я могу их ему легко передать), а его нежелание узнать страну и людей. Вот это жал.

Всегда проще охаять, разобраться и узнать правду не хочется, особенно если она разрушает его представления.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

В этой стране он, увы, никогда не был, и я это уже доказывал как-то давно тут.

1. Был. Есть бесспорные доказательства.
2. Он не дает никакого повода для наездов.

У меня есть доказательства обратного. Те, кто действительно были (а таких я знаю оччень много - почти все прошли через сеть моих отелей), рассуждают иначе. А что есть наезд?

Originally Posted by Alexander

What I would like to add...
This is not bad news but well-known facts in Russia.
The Soviet press usually told the truth about the West, too... well, you know... unemployment, economic crisis, homeless people etc. But if you tell a part of the truth, this becomes propaganda. Vinnie, of course you are right. There are a lot of problems in Russia. You lived here and you saw our problems. And I'm sure you like Russia a lot (viking's genes ). But agree with me, there are some differences between criticism and propaganda. Unfortunately, articles about Russia in western newspapers look like "enemy propaganda". That's why you can see so many opponents here. That's why we don't discuss our problems here. Here we defend our motherland.
If this topic had started with your question about one of our problem, I think we would have started flaying our authorities, police etc. But this topic started with a western article. It looked like the order "Fire!"

I agree, Alexander
It DOES seem that the western press has had an increasing surge of negative articles about Russia, be they factual or not. They might be inadvertently painting a too grim picture, making people think that life in Russia is a curse

Luckily we at this forum are smart enough to make our own conclusions, after all we are here to learn the language and culture of this great country!

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

VendingMachine, че-то ты совсем разошелся! Поменьше наездов, побольше аргументов!

Аргументов я приводил более достаточно. Человек уперелся голову в стену и не хочет посмотреть иначе на людей и на ситуацию.

Ты наверно про себя говоришь? Если обо мне, ты ошибаешься, друг мой. Я всегда готов изменить своё мнение, если я вижу факты. К сожалению, ты предлагаешь только свое слово, что всё совсем не так как все остальные (включая русское государство) говорят и как я сам видел собственными глазами.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

ЗЫ. А Калинку не обижай, он понимает в российской жизни побольше некоторых, хоть и со своей колокольни.

Он разбирается в реалиях этой страны как, например, я разбираюсь в процессах обработки китового уса. В этой стране он, увы, никогда не был, и я это уже доказывал как-то давно тут. Но самое страшное не его незнание (зание можно преобрести, я могу их ему легко передать), а его нежелание узнать страну и людей. Вот это жал.

Всегда проще охаять, разобраться и узнать правду не хочется, особенно если она разрушает его представления.

блин, теперь я не был в России? Ух ты, хитрый ты человек. Значит я лгу? Все, которые бывали в России должны думать как ты?