Thread: Bleak article about Russia

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

И почему волосы на теле исчезли, а на голове нет?

Это написано только про женщин. Видимо, растительный покров на теле атрофируется от постоянных эпиляций.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

You've been around here very long indeed and you're still as ignorant as if you only joined yesterday. I see this as a personal failure, a failure to educate potential tourist material to know and respect the Russian way of life. You seem a bright fellow though, so maybe not everything is lost. I will therefore be focusing on you specifically. Under my watchful eye and with my firm guidance you will be rediscovering this country.

I feel honored to be under your firm guidance, but I am probably a lost cause. After all, I am sane enough to make my own conclusions based on personal experience and using sources of information that I can trust. I wouldn't fall to your propoganda, although it is useful to have some form of entity on the extreme other side of the spectrum that does nothing but refute anything anybody says.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

What traditions are you on about? Dying at the age of 59? There's no such Russian tradition.

I am talking about battles long fought and dogs deep buried. I'll let them lie, I am just stating that your track record doesn't bring about the highest level of confidence.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

I know what "average" means. However, I know a LOT of Russians (read "hundreds") from all walks of life and yet I don't know anyone who died in their 60s.

Who cares about the 60s?? If 200 people die when they are 20 and 200 when they are 100, what's the average age they die? I know PERSONALLY of young Russians that have died in their 20s tragically and for no reason. Therefore it is easy to believe that the average mortality age in Russia is low. It is tragic, but I don't see why it should be russophobic. However, I am always willing to let you go as the exception that proves the point.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

There's sh*t going on in every country, including Russia, but not on the scale your russophobic media would have you believe. Come to Russia and see for yourself. Experience this country first hand, cancel your yellow rag subscription.

I am sure the media exaggerates, but in every lie their is a grain of truth. You seem to forget that I used to live in Russia, so I have a pretty good basis of comparison.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Yep, that's me alright, with my friends. How did you guess?

It wasn't hard. I've had you figured out right from the very start. As vain as you are you would certainly want your own pic in the avatar.

You truly are a comedian, I really take your remarks as they are: pure comical value!

Originally Posted by Scotcher

Go on VM, give us an example of a newspaper, or any other source for that matter, which disputes the fact that Russia has a demographic problem.

Ye're missing the point, man - any newspaper thit screives shite aboot this kintra is a crappy Mickey Moose paper. Endae ...ing story, man.

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

I know PERSONALLY of young Russians that have died in their 20s tragically and for no reason. Therefore it is easy to believe that the average mortality age in Russia is low.

I know PERSONALLY of young Norwegians and Americans that have died in their 20s tragically and for no reason. [Accidents happen everywhere, you know.] Therefore it is easy to believe that the average mortality age in the US and Norway is low.

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

You seem to forget that I used to live in Russia, so I have a pretty good basis of comparison.

Wait a minute, let us clarify one point - you used to say you had lived in Russia.

I have just received news of an American dying at the age of 17. You folks certainly die young over there.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

I know PERSONALLY of young Russians that have died in their 20s tragically and for no reason. Therefore it is easy to believe that the average mortality age in Russia is low.

I know PERSONALLY of young Norwegians and Americans that have died in their 20s tragically and for no reason. [Accidents happen everywhere, you know.] Therefore it is easy to believe that the average mortality age in the US and Norway is low.

How wonderfully illogical. If you look at any mortality statistics, be it Russian or American, you'd see that in fact these countries have long life expectancy values.

You see, my conclusions are based on pure logic. I have experienced Russian life, its hazards, as well as western life, with its hazards. I know people in both countries, I know their family histories. Based on this knowledge plus statistics given from NGOs, UN, etc. etc. who can arguably be called reliable (I mean, why would they say things were better in the Soviet Union than now? Are they communists, pray?) I come to a very logical conclusion. You have no basis for your arguments. They are ultimately flawed.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

You seem to forget that I used to live in Russia, so I have a pretty good basis of comparison.

Wait a minute, let us clarify one point - you used to say you had lived in Russia.

Huh? I used to say? I haven't stopped saying that yet, sir!

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

I have just received news of an American dying at the age of 17. You folks certainly die young over there.

Look, it seems like you are more reacting to the stream of Western media articles that keep putting Russia in a bad light and you are just backlashing. I can understand, I'd also find that very irritating if someone was constantely critisizing my country. However, going to the extreme and deny that obvious problems exist isn't going to win anyone over.

It's hard to consider this article as an example of even a semi-decent analysis. Just some numbers thrown together in a huge pile together with anecdotes, faulty interpretations and pure absurdities. I don't deny the existence of a demographic problem in Russia, but the gravity of the situation as pictured and the overall we-are-all-gonna-die tone of the article are beyond criticism. I'll just take a couple of examples from the page 1:

1. Sergei Mironov, chairman of the upper house of Russia's parliament, said last year that if the trend didn't change, the population would fall to 52 million by 2080.

"There will no longer be a great Russia," he said. "It will be torn apart piece by piece, and finally cease to exist."

Why would he say that the trend will not change? The very graph on the right side of the page shows that the trend is changing and it's highly volatile. It's like me having got a 60% return on an investment this year saying, OMG, if this trend continues, I'll be a millionaire in 10 years. OK, I admit, Sergei Mironov is a show-off or a complete idiot, but why quote him? What is the message here? We, the editors, practically agree?

2. That may be an overstatement, but there are serious questions about whether Russia will be able to hold on to its lands along the border with China or field an army, let alone a workforce to support the ill and the elderly.

Is China going to war with Russia? Russia has a territory of 6,592,800 sq mi, while Canada has a comparable territory of 3,854,085 sq mi. The population of Canada is about 30 mln people. Are we soon going to be invaded by the US? Why the workforce would not be able to support the old population, if it dies before the retirement age? Any numbers to support this statement? Or it's just conjured out of thin air?

I could go on if I cared enough.

This article reminded me of the russian-style reporting we have already talked about, and what do you know, the 4th page says "Yakov Ryzhak of The Times' Moscow Bureau contributed to this report" which explains a lot to me. Welcome to the tabloid domain.

There is a reason why I don't read the LA Times. But the underlying facts are still the same.

OK, some numbers may be real, but they are hardly news. All this has been discussed at length on different levels, and even some changes in immigration policies were introduced by the government. That is a known problem but it doesn't justify the doomsday articles entitled "a dying population" implying that there are millions of Russians who are lining up to jump off a ledge. Reading that is like living with a hysterical person who would throw a fit every time you cough or sneeze and demand to drop everything and check it with a doctor immediately and write a will. I understand why people are so annoyed, you may not call that type of person quite insane, but something is not right in the head.

kalinka_vinnie, you do not understand this coutry very well.

Here is an interesting paper on mortality in Russia during the 90s showing that the economic crisis had a profound affect on longevity. The good news is that longevity is once again on the increase.

http://longevity-science.org/Gavrilova-PAA-2001.pdf
The tables are all at the end of the article.

Russia
Year Males Females
1991 63.5 74.3
1992 62.0 73.8
1993 58.9 71.9
1994 57.6 71.2
1995 58.3 71.7
1996 59.8 72.5
1997 60.8 72.9

Compared to some other countries
India 1994-1997 62.4 63.4
China 1994-1997 69.0 73.0
Tunisia 1994-1997 69.5 73.3
United States 1997 73.6 79.4

No need to get defensive about this problem, as everyone knows what a stressor economic struggle can be. Anyway the sources are Russian researchers, so don't blame the west for these statistics.

More on the subject here: http://longevity-science.blogspot.com/

Originally Posted by chaika

No need to get defensive about this problem, as everyone knows what a stressor economic struggle can be.

There is no economic struggle. Come to Russia and see for yourself.

Originally Posted by chaika

Anyway the sources are Russian researchers, so don't blame the west for these statistics.

No doubt sponsored by your people. I know this type of "researcher".

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

There is no economic struggle. Come to Russia and see for yourself.

You mean Russia is not a relatively poor country?

Originally Posted by basurero

You mean Russia is not a poor country?

I don't think it's poor. What's "poor country" anyway? Do you mean all Russians are poor and starving?

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Originally Posted by basurero

You mean Russia is not a poor country?

I don't think it's poor. What's "poor country" anyway? Do you mean all Russians are poor and starving?

Nah, I just reckon VendingMachine is being a little narrow minded here. He may be lucky enough not to have any financial issues but the truth is there's a big chunk of the Russian population that does.

...the funniest thing that sometimes certain people would get incensed by such articles, but then they would read exactly the same thing in some Russian newspaper (which would blame the situation on 'america' and 'liberals') and quote it all around...
Unfortunately the problem is there, although I wouldn't relate it too much to the economy -- the trend started back way before perestroika, and it's present pretty much all over Europe... Reversing it depends of course on the economy and the policies that are taken.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

What's "poor country" anyway?

It's the one ranking low on world's standard of living charts. It's a purely economic characteristic and can be measured easily. Russia qualifies.

Laxxy is right in that the population growth rates are not necessarily directly linked to the economic success of a given nation, and articles of that kind are not intellectual reading.

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

How wonderfully illogical. If you look at any mortality statistics, be it Russian or American, you'd see that in fact these countries have long life expectancy values.

Aye, sir, it is illogical. But you know what? I used your very own sentence, your very own so-called logic - I simply swapped American/Norwegian for Russian. There's a good Russian proverb that applies here, but I'd better keep it to myself for fear you might faint.

Originally Posted by busurero

Nah, I just reckon VendingMachine is being a little narrow minded here. He may be lucky enough not to have any financial issues but the truth is there's a big chunk of the Russian population that does.

I'm not "lucky enough" - I earn my daily bread in the sweat of my face. My financial prosperity comes from several well run businesses. As for the chunk in question - sure there is one but it's much smaller than you think and certainly people like me vastly outnumber those who belong to that "chunk" as you put it.