Thread: Anyone doing any useless..uh I mean...obscure languages?

Originally Posted by Propp

brett, it was "10 lessons", not years.

Ha. Sorry . By the time I finally got the 'quote' function down, I was sleep-typing what I'd already written twice over. I smell a defamation law-suit coming. (But, between you and me, it really was 10yrs, wasn't it. Don't worry, you'll get there champ. [insert "patronization" emoticon here])
Well, if the International Phonetic Alphabet does exist, I'll have to return to that bookshop and ask a more knowledgable attendant, then.

I wonder if anyone has a deaf or blind friend, and knows any sign-language or brail. A friend down my street has a grandson who lip-reads like nobody's business. People can't even tell his deaf. Though when 'he' talks, I think the penny drops. Though, I myself haven't met him. The deaf community seem tucked away from society a bit. I remember I used to catch a regular train with deaf-school students. Has anyone heard a deaf person laugh? These ones were LOUD!

Perhaps we could replace the IPA with a more scientific system consisting of a phase space of, say, 30-50 variables - then we could all have a little bit of software (very simple) that would generate the sound for us based on the setting of each variable. Admittedly not very useful for paper dictionaries , but it just seens that phonetics is too complex to represent with one symbol per phoneme. The differences in phonetic representation between the various dictionaries can be truly maddening, but entirely understandable given the huge variations in pronunciation.

Let's make our own language!
OK here's my feature list.
No prepositions.
4-8 cases for nouns, serving the purpose of prepositions. Adjectives have to agree for case.
No articles (that's a no-brainer)
No genders. They're very pretty, but you don't need them, do you?
Word order: Strict SVO with a question particle (like Chinese) for questions, not a change in word order - very easy to learn, very intuitive for most people.
Tense and Aspect: let's have it pretty much like Russian: three tenses and two aspects. That seems like enough to cover most requirements. (Apparently Chinese doesn't have tense, but I haven't really studied it yet. The Chinese option could be interesting)
Verbs should have no conjugation (again like Chinese) - so you'll need to strictly include subject pronouns.
Use prefixes for motion verbs but none of this multidirectional nonsense.
No reflexive verbs, have a particle for 'self' or something like that.

Anybody want to change the list?

This could be interesting(I guess we all fit under the first category, then, eh? ). If there is no verb conjugation yet but there are two aspects, I'm thinking we would have to indicate this with particles, much like in Chinese ("le" and "guo", anyone?). But how then are we going to do tense? I don't think Chinese has tense per se. It is implied through the use of words like "tomorrow, now, yesterday", etc. But perhaps we could come up with more particles that show tense if it isn't already clear from the context, although that's beginning to sound an awful lot like verb conjugation.

About nouns, how are we going to decline them? I say we be nice and we don't actually change the word(for example красивая - красивой). Instead we apply some suffix(which is the same for all nouns).

The hardest part will probably be picking word roots. You could go the international route like Lojban and randomly pick words from several languages. Or you could just come up with something yourself, which is what I'd prefer. I propose that the language be polysyllabic and as free from ambiguity as possible.

Also, I'm wondering how you'll derive new words. Aren't there linguistic terms for languages which derive words from roots and languages which take existing words and add them together, or something like that? Enlighten me, please!

I have a couple of points to offer. But, seeing as that this could become a huge monster, one day neccessitating its own seperate "Lounge" even, perhaps we should at least start a new thread 'specifically' for "our language", or whatever it ends up being named. I guess Waxwing should have the honours of starting it.
(Though, I don't know if this fits in with MasterRussian's intentions for this forum. But they'll let us know their stance soon enough).

I have developed this profound interest in Finnish and Basque. However, I have yet to find resources.

Originally Posted by Mixaelus

I have developed this profound interest in Finnish and Basque. However, I have yet to find resources.

I also have a long-standing interset in Finnish, ever since a musical group called Hedningarna introduced me to Nordic culture. All it takes is for one person (or artist) to express the beauty of a language and culture, and I'm hooked because of what they make me see in it. The sense of wilderness to Nordic lands, is what draws me in. Even though there are more useful languages for me than Finnish, its beauty keeps drawing my attention. But, I've not gotten anywhere with it really, due to those depleted resources you spoke of. Basque? Good luck finding resources for that one. I have actually seen a couple of products for Basque. There are usually a couple of products around for a given language, but you need ones suitable for your own learning style. So, it's just a matter of luck as to whether or not that 'one' item you find for that language, is in your own particular style of learning. So far, my Finnish has been accumulated through scrounging bits and pieces from millions of sources. It has been a very dis-organized process.

Originally Posted by Pravit

This could be interesting(I guess we all fit under the first category, then, eh? ). If there is no verb conjugation yet but there are two aspects, I'm thinking we would have to indicate this with particles, much like in Chinese ("le" and "guo", anyone?).
But how then are we going to do tense? I don't think Chinese has tense per se. It is implied through the use of words like "tomorrow, now, yesterday", etc.

Yes, you're right about tense in Chinese. That's what I've been told.
Well I was thinking just to use suffixes like -л in Russian for the tenses. And for the aspect you could use just one standard prefix. Like Russian but simpler. I like the Russian system for tense/aspect. 'le' is apparently a complete nightmare, but I don't know.

Originally Posted by Pravit

About nouns, how are we going to decline them? I say we be nice and we don't actually change the word(for example красивая - красивой). Instead we apply some suffix(which is the same for all nouns).

Yeah, that's what I mean. One regular declination. Because there are no genders.

Originally Posted by Pravit

I propose that the language be polysyllabic and as free from ambiguity as possible.

Well yes. I guess the choice is between polysyllabic (the Indo-European .. and Turkic?) on the one hand or tonal (Sino-Tibetan) on the other? Personally I can't handle tones but that's probably just my problem.

Originally Posted by Pravit

Also, I'm wondering how you'll derive new words. Aren't there linguistic terms for languages which derive words from roots and languages which take existing words and add them together, or something like that? Enlighten me, please!

Well I can't really answer that except to say I guess I'm proposing a synthetic language. You maybe talking about the distinction between synthetic and analytic languages, but I'm a bit hazy on this. I think it's easier to make new words in a synthetic language - witness Anglophones' use of Latin for technical fields such as medicine.

You know, waxwing, I'm wondering if we should really make aspect a part of the verb. Perhaps we should just use helping words? Otherwise it gets difficult and sometimes you run into the "uh-oh, should I use perfective or imperfective." About "le" I've heard it is indeed a nightmare but we could have something similar with less nightmareish qualities.

Well yes. I guess the choice is between polysyllabic (the Indo-European .. and Turkic?) on the one hand or tonal (Sino-Tibetan) on the other? Personally I can't handle tones but that's probably just my problem.

Oh, please no, I don't want tones! I can handle them fine but the only reason they're in any modern language is to increase the amount of sounds somewhat. Without tones, modern putonghua has something like 400 distinct sounds. I heard they developed from consonant clusters being eliminated in Middle Chinese. Or something. But anyhow, I prefer polysyllabic. Bloody hard to remember 500 meanings for the word "zhao."

Yep, synthetic is the word I meant. It should be like that!

I think the tones could serve a grammatical function, instead of altering the meaning of two similarly spelt nouns or adjectives etc. The question of how to broach tense, could be solved with tones; (using Mandarin tone model)
VERBS
Present tense = tone 5 (neutral flat)
Past tense = tone 4 (dropping)
Future tense = tone 2 (rising)

This way you wouldn't need to change the word itself with declinations or suffixes. You say the very same word but with a different tone.

So, should we get a new seperate thread for this pursuit . I'll be happy to start it, if no-one else wants the honours. Because, I think due it getting highly technical, we'll be drowning out any posters who aren't participating in this particular pursuit . Feedback?

Eh....sounds kind of interesting, but tones work best with one syllable only. So all your verbs with either have to be one syllable or you'd have to play some kind of repeat the tone game for each syllable in the verb. Besides, me no like tones.

Well, see, it depends on if we're making a new possibile international auxiliary language or if we're just trying to cook up something really weird. If it's the latter case, then maybe the tone = tense thing isn't a half bad idea.

I did a bit of tolkeinish for a while. Just writing people's names in quenya, or goofy poems upon request. It's been quite some time though.

Originally Posted by дано

I did a bit of tolkeinish for a while. Just writing people's names in quenya, or goofy poems upon request. It's been quite some time though.

Show us a little sample of a goofy poem? And I don't know what 'quenya' is. How do those names look like? Unless romanized alphabet can't represent its alphabet justly. Which is probably the case with most hidden/obscure languages.

And for that matter, anyone who knows an unusual language could give short samples of of what it looks like. Or, even give a link to a page displaying its alphabet?

I just now found a site showing various unusual alphabets; http://www.omniglot.com/

Come now, Waxwing, you've already given up on our grand project? BTW, did you happen to frequent the Chinese Language & Culture forums around June or July? I saw a couple posts by a Waxwing from Stavropol there.

Yes, that was me
I tried to start learning Chinese then. I have a couple of good books now, but absolutely no time ... to learn either Chinese or Russian

It is a nice forum, though, I think. Haven't been there in a while.

As for our project, I was just interested to read what people's wish-list would be. I had no intention of ever doing it. By the way, what happened to Master-Russian-3D?

Master-Russian-3D was never really cancelled. It just sort of got put off until I forgot about it. Sort of like when I was last reading Двенадцать Стульев. I was reading away until the part where the theatre troupe goes to some other city. And then they started hitting me hard with the 1920's Russian inside humor and I decided to put it away for another day. And then I sort of forgot about it. I should take a break from Chinese and just finish the book.

Ah, yes, MR 3D. Anyhow, besides me being lazy, the guy who was supposed to do all the textures and 3D artwork stopped. Ah yes, always easy to blame someone else.

And I don't know how to program that well.

To continue the 'hypthetical' global language; Alphabet and Phonetics

Given that a global language is useful to the degree that it is easy to learn, I'd maximize the amount of letters and sounds. Because the more sounds you have, the more easy it is to distinguish words from one another when you hear it spoken. So, listening comprehension would be alot easier than in traditional languages, therefore mastered earlier. Creating a new language, we wouldn't be tied to the limit in sounds that traditonal languages are bound by.
No diphtongs. Nor qualifyers, or whatever those 'symbols/letter softeners' near the end of Russian's alphabet are called. Each letter = one sound. No silent letters. My belief has always been- if a letter is silent, it should also be invisible. No superfluosity.
Having 40-50 letter could look daunting to an adult. But as a child, they tell you how many letters their are, and you just learn them. 26 letters vs 50? No difference, in principal. Once you've learnt them, you're set for life. If you had to, you could teach the alphabet to children with two songs, one for each half of the alphabet.
The more comprehensive the foundation, the easier the language is to use once you've learnt it. With English, you could show five people a word they'd not seen before, and ask them to pronounce it. You'd get maybe three diverse pronunciations between them. And someone just new to the language may have come across that word on the written page, and still not recognize it as the word he heard. A strong alphabet would eleminate 'lost in translation' aspect of written to spoken.
The simple explanation for an extensive alphabet- memory is the simpler part of language. Which is not to say there's no difficulty there. But it's only a short-term obstacle. It's application that is the hard part to becoming profficient at a language. Application is what'll plague you beyond the first year.

And, the letters should look pretty as flowers. :P

You mean we should have a syllabary? Interesting. But any language will invariably be difficult to understand in fast speech. Therefore the sounds should be such that you are forced to say them clearly.