Thread: Pale Blue Dot - бледная, синяя точка - по-русски перевод.

Let's be realistic. The whole "international" thing will never work out.

Do you need to insult my opinion in order to vaunt your own? I am realistic - that is why I think we should wait until we have evolved more, before we run off and contaminate or destroy places we do not fully understand yet.

If all of these nations could, you know, work together, the issue of "who gets there first" would be irrelevant and resources could be evenly distributed. But I am realistic and I realize that is unlikely to happen. Humans are basically going to fight for every inch, instead of cooperate and logically and fairly divvy things up which would seem more rational. But humans are not very rational, are they? Yes, Helium will be in big demand shortly, because we need it to run MRI's and other life-saving technology, and Helium supplies on earth are almost exhausted.

America is not really in the "Space Race" like it used to be. NASA has been stripped to bare-bones and the shuttles have been retired. Private Enterprise wants to set up hotels orbiting earth to make money from the ultra rich, who are the only ones who will be able to afford to stay there.

War is the way life on earth settles things. How do we know anything about extraterrestrial concepts...? They may not need to have a "war." They may not even recognize us as sentient beings and it could be like "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" and they could just blast earth to put in a new highway. Who knows....? No one does.

Anyway, this is an interesting conversation but if you are going to condescend to me, why should I continue to discuss it with you?

Originally Posted by Deborski

Do you need to insult my opinion in order to vaunt your own? Anyway, this is an interesting conversation but if you are going to condescend to me, why should I continue to discuss it with you?

I apologize if I had hurt you, that was not my intention. Usually, I'm pretty sarcastic when expressing my opinions, so I would appreciate if you could cut me some slack on that. This conversation is interesting for me too. Actually, I'm so interested in the topic that some time back I used to dig into the exobiology and exopsychology to get some better understanding of the topic.

Originally Posted by Deborski

War is the way life on earth settles things. How do we know anything about extraterrestrial concepts...? They may not need to have a "war." They may not even recognize us as sentient beings and it could be like "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" and they could just blast earth to put in a new highway. Who knows....? No one does.

That's true, no one does for sure until we actually have an experimental base, i.e. until we meet some extraterrestrials. However, the big question here is - should we do some thinking before that happens or should we actually not think about it? If we meet nobody, then the worst thing that happened - we've done some extra unnecessary thinking rather than having an allegedly meaningful discussions about, say, what exactly some politicians do with some service maids in the US hotels, which probably would not be that harmful. However, if we do meet someone and we are not prepared, our behaviour in that very first contact can change our future for better or for worse. Or cause our complete destruction as a race. Say, you go in the woods and you see a strange colourless mass slowly approaching you and making some sounds. What do you do? Stick your hand forward and hope the mass will think you offer good greetings? Believe it or not, but even the remote tribes on our own planets would interpret that gesture as an attack. With the possibly sad consequence for you personally and for our entire race which from that point on will be perceived as aggressive until that misunderstanding is cleared. If ever.

So, what the "exo" sciences are trying to do is to think what's common and what's unique and extrapolate what's common onto the unknown with some degree of probability.

Therefore, I think this topic is important and it also helps us to better understand ourselves. Regardless of the outcome, it's like learning the foreign language - you may not learn it properly, but in the end you understand your own language better.

So, let's discuss the "war" issue. You see, the evolution of bodies goes from the more primitive building blocks to the more complex in the way that the more complex are built up of the primitive blocks and combined in a certain way. That leads to the more complex organisms CONSUMING the bodies of the other organisms to extract the primitive building blocks in order to sustain their complex bodies in the most economical way. So, the sheep would not hunt the bunnies, but it would still consume the grass. So, when we're talking about the sentient extraterrestrial beings, we should realize the great chance of those beings consuming some other beings on their native planet thus being intimately familiar with the destruction of the foreign life in support of their own life. Which is a solid foundation for war. There should be something stopping those beings from war, otherwise the war would occur naturally. And the hostile environment may help (I mean our Earth environment may be hostile towards the extraterrestrials), but it might also not stop the war either, because those beings might want to "Exoform" our Earth the same way we want to "Terraform" other planets.

Originally Posted by Deborski

I am realistic - that is why I think we should wait until we have evolved more, before we run off and contaminate or destroy places we do not fully understand yet.

I agree to a certain extent, however, let's think about it another way. Using the existing technology, it might take up to several hundred years before Mars could be inhabited by humans wearing no physiological protection. The longest processes are heating Mars and beefing up its atmosphere. Why not to start now? It will create the expectations, the market, the investments, the emerge of new technology, etc. Lots of benefits, what do you think?

Originally Posted by Deborski

If all of these nations could, you know, work together, the issue of "who gets there first" would be irrelevant and resources could be evenly distributed. But I am realistic and I realize that is unlikely to happen. Humans are basically going to fight for every inch, instead of cooperate and logically and fairly divvy things up which would seem more rational. But humans are not very rational, are they?

Exactly. Humans (like some of the other organisms on our planet) are both competitive and cooperative based on the circumstances. So far the political systems based on the cooperation have lost to the competitive systems by almost all points.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Yes, Helium will be in big demand shortly, because we need it to run MRI's and other life-saving technology, and Helium supplies on earth are almost exhausted.

A bit more than that. He-3 does not exist on Earth but is thought to be abundant in the Moon's regolith. He-3 is praised as the next-generation fuel for the fusion reactors which should satisfy the humanity's energy needs.

Originally Posted by Deborski

America is not really in the "Space Race" like it used to be. NASA has been stripped to bare-bones and the shuttles have been retired. Private Enterprise wants to set up hotels orbiting earth to make money from the ultra rich, who are the only ones who will be able to afford to stay there.

All in good time. The space tourism will help to build the market, improve the technology to get to the orbit cheaper and safer, and the rest will follow.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

I apologize if I had hurt you, that was not my intention. Usually, I'm pretty sarcastic when expressing my opinions, so I would appreciate if you could cut me some slack on that. This conversation is interesting for me too. Actually, I'm so interested in the topic that some time back I used to dig into the exobiology and exopsychology to get some better understanding of the topic.

No problem. I may have been too defensive. I enjoy the conversation - but I get irritated when I think people are talking down to me.

That's true, no one does for sure until we actually have an experimental base, i.e. until we meet some extraterrestrials. However, the big question here is - should we do some thinking before that happens or should we actually not think about it? If we meet nobody, then the worst thing that happened - we've done some extra unnecessary thinking rather than having an allegedly meaningful discussions about, say, what exactly some politicians do with some service maids in the US hotels, which probably would not be that harmful. However, if we do meet someone and we are not prepared, our behaviour in that very first contact can change our future for better or for worse. Or cause our complete destruction as a race. Say, you go in the woods and you see a strange colourless mass slowly approaching you and making some sounds. What do you do? Stick your hand forward and hope the mass will think you offer good greetings? Believe it or not, but even the remote tribes on our own planets would interpret that gesture as an attack. With the possibly sad consequence for you personally and for our entire race which from that point on will be perceived as aggressive until that misunderstanding is cleared. If ever.

Well, as for me, I would run up and lick the colorless mass with my tongue. Or roll over and show it my stomach. No, actually I would not do anything because any action could be completely misinterpreted. But then, so could doing nothing. If/when we meet alien life, it's a guarantee there will be misunderstandings! Maybe I would just start singing at it. Music is based on mathematics, so maybe that would be perceived as communication. What do you think? I figure it would be an even playing field with everything having an equal chance of being perceived wrong, so I may as well sing a song.

So, what the "exo" sciences are trying to do is to think what's common and what's unique and extrapolate what's common onto the unknown with some degree of probability.

Therefore, I think this topic is important and it also helps us to better understand ourselves. Regardless of the outcome, it's like learning the foreign language - you may not learn it properly, but in the end you understand your own language better.

Oh that is very true! But learning Russian really messes with my head. When I speak Russian for extended periods, like I did when I lived in Russia, my English grammar gets messed up and I start speaking English "wrong." Does that happen to you?

So, let's discuss the "war" issue. You see, the evolution of bodies goes from the more primitive to the more complex in the way that the more complex are built up of the primitive and combined in a certain way. That leads to the more complex being CONSUMING the more primitive (or whoever they could) to sustain their complex bodies in the most economical way. So, the sheep would not hunt the bunnies, but it would still consume the grass. So, when we're talking about the sentient extraterrestrial beings, we should realize the great chance of those beings consuming some other beings on their native planet thus being intimately familiar with the destruction of the foreign life in support of their own life. Which is a solid foundation for war. There should be something stopping those beings from war, otherwise the war would occur naturally. And the hostile environment may help (I mean our Earth environment may be hostile towards the extraterrestrials), but it might also not stop the war either, because those beings might want to "Exoform" our Earth the same way we want to "Terraform" other planets......

Exactly. Humans (like some of the other organisms on our planet) are both competitive and cooperative based on the circumstances. So far the political systems based on the cooperation have lost to the competitive systems by almost all points.

I am not so convinced that the aggressive political forms always win. It seems to me that the "war" between aggression and cooperation never ends, but continues, round after round, into infinity. Conservatives versus liberals, etc. Cooperation is just as inherent in our gene pool as aggression. After all, we had to help each other to survive at the dawn of humanity and the same is true today. When times get tough, people come together and help each other. It might take a threat from an alien force to unite humankind completely. But in the meantime, I still believe in the power of cooperation, and love, to be greater than aggression, hate and destruction. Maybe you would think I am naive, and maybe I am, but I will never agree that aggression and killing is superior to cooperation and caring for each other.

A bit more than that. He-3 does not exist on Earth but is thought to be abundant in the Moon's regolith. He-3 is praised as the next-generation fuel for the fusion reactors which should satisfy the humanity's energy needs.

Sure, there are abundant ways in which the Helium-3 would help us. I favor establishing an international moon colony where the stuff can be extracted. But we will see how "international" it is in time... It would seem to me that the brightest scientists on the planet would prefer, if possible, to work together for the greater good and combine their wealth of knowledge, rather than be pitted together by governments intent on destroying each other. But that has always been the feeling of scientists and more intelligent people. Unfortunately, the most intelligent people are rarely the ones who lead us. Instead, it seems that the aggressive, power-hungry types of people are the ones who rise to leadership, and then try to pretend they are Alexander the Great and conquer the world under the guise of some "preferred" system of government - be it democracy, communism or god knows what else.

BTW Helium-3 is produced on earth as a byproduct when nuclear warheads are dismantled.

All in good time. The space tourism will help to build the market, improve the technology to get to the orbit cheaper and safer, and the rest will follow.

Perhaps. I don't mind space hotels. But I think there ought to be a way for the "99%" to benefit from such an experience, and not solely the uber-wealthy.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Well, as for me, I would run up and lick the colorless mass with my tongue. Or roll over and show it my stomach. No, actually I would not do anything because any action could be completely misinterpreted. But then, so could doing nothing. If/when we meet alien life, it's a guarantee there will be misunderstandings! Maybe I would just start singing at it. Music is based on mathematics, so maybe that would be perceived as communication. What do you think? I figure it would be an even playing field with everything having an equal chance of being perceived wrong, so I may as well sing a song.

I think if you behave like a domestic dog, that might give a wrong impression of the humanity either. And if you start singing some of Celine Dione songs, the extraterrestrial might feel like a good opportunity to dive into the north Atlantic to fetch some extra precious stones. Off the top of my head, you need to stay still, not run or hide, and not smile, but slowly wave your straight hands palms forward until the other being would do something. Then, you slowly try to imitate what it did until it tries to imitate what you do. If you get to the point the being is trying to imitate you, you've got 90% of the success in the first contact because the being is considerate of you and recognizes you're sentient. The rest depends on what happens next, which is up to you at that point. And what happens if you don't get that 90%? That's why you need to get yourself familiar with at least some concepts of the exopsychology.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Oh that is very true! But learning Russian really messes with my head. When I speak Russian for extended periods, like I did when I lived in Russia, my English grammar gets messed up and I start speaking English "wrong." Does that happen to you?

Well, my native language is Russian and I live in an English-speaking country, so I'm still working on improving my English. I think I still speak Russian right most of the time.

Originally Posted by Deborski

1. I am not so convinced that the aggressive political forms always win.
2. Instead, it seems that the aggressive, power-hungry types of people are the ones who rise to leadership [...]

Alright, so you said it yourself, in the personal competition, the most competitive win. The same I think is true with the political forms, even though the "aggressiveness" is much more complex. That is probably a large [off] topic on its own.

Originally Posted by Deborski

It seems to me that the "war" between aggression and cooperation never ends, but continues, round after round, into infinity. [...] Maybe you would think I am naive, and maybe I am, but I will never agree that aggression and killing is superior to cooperation and caring for each other.

That is called "the balance" and I think it's one of the fundamental aspects of the Universe. One of the ways we can avoid war with the extraterrestrials is to become useful to them. That is an open question though as the way they might want us to become useful might not be acceptable by us. And so the politics starts ...

Originally Posted by Deborski

Perhaps. I don't mind space hotels. But I think there ought to be a way for the "99%" to benefit from such an experience, and not solely the uber-wealthy.

It's coming. Inevitably. Not very long ago, only the very rich could enjoy being passengers on the sea ships...

Originally Posted by Crocodile

I think if you behave like a domestic dog, that might give a wrong impression of the humanity either.

Well, I was thinking more of behaving like a cat, which I consider more intelligent and evolved than a dog - as well as cleaner and more attractive - but I digress.

And if you start singing some of Celine Dione songs, the extraterrestrial might feel like a good opportunity to dive into the north Atlantic to fetch some extra precious stones.

Hmmmm, well, you haven't heard me sing

Off the top of my head, you need to stay still, not run or hide, and not smile, but slowly wave your straight hands palms forward until the other being would do something.

Ah, but if this alien being has no limbs - and thus no concept of limbs - how would such a gesture be interpreted? The alien is not going to "grok"* the human-cultural implications of palms up versus palms down.

Then, you slowly try to imitate what it did until it tries to imitate what you do. If you get to the point the being is trying to imitate you, you've got 90% of the success in the first contact because the being is considerate of you and recognizes you're sentient. The rest depends on what happens next, which is up to you at that point. And what happens if you don't get that 90%?

Imitating is the best idea. But what if imitating is, for all practical purposes, impossible? The creature is globular in shape, right? How would a human body imitate it's movements?

That's why you need to get yourself familiar with at least some concepts of the exopsychology.

And where would I do that? No one has met an alien yet (except George W. Bush and look what the experience did to him!!) so where would be an encyclopedia documenting the various "concepts of the exopsychology"? Can I find it at the library...?

Well, my native language is Russian and I live in an English-speaking country, so I'm still working on improving my English. I think I still speak Russian right most of the time.

Well, I have a tendency to imitate the people I am around (in which case perhaps my success with the alien is better assured). I can't help myself, it's completely intuitive and I cannot even explain it. I mimic their accents and pronunciation without even intending to, often. So after I was immersed in Russian for two years, it actually took me a few months to speak English normally again. Every person is different, of course. My husband could not pronounce Russian words correctly if his life depended on it. If he were to learn Russian, he would have a strong accent and it is unlikely that he would experience the sort of mental changes I experienced. I cannot even describe it, really.

Alright, so you said it yourself, in the personal competition, the most competitive win. The same I think is true with the political forms, even though the "aggressiveness" is much more complex. That is probably a large [off] topic on its own.

That is called "the balance" and I think it's one of the fundamental aspects of the Universe. One of the ways we can avoid war with the extraterrestrials is to become useful to them. That is an open question though as the way they might want us to become useful might not be acceptable by us. And so the politics starts ...

Yes, that would be a very tricky situation. We would not want to be useful as food, for example. I wonder what humans would be able to provide that an alien race would need?

It's coming. Inevitably. Not very long ago, only the very rich could enjoy being passengers on the sea ships...

That is a good point!


*grok
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grok

Originally Posted by Deborski

Well, I was thinking more of behaving like a cat, which I consider more intelligent and evolved than a dog - as well as cleaner and more attractive - but I digress.

See, even a terrestrial crocodile like myself made a mistake, what would you expect from the extraterrestrial?

Originally Posted by Deborski

Ah, but if this alien being has no limbs - and thus no concept of limbs - how would such a gesture be interpreted? The alien is not going to "grok"* the human-cultural implications of palms up versus palms down. Imitating is the best idea. But what if imitating is, for all practical purposes, impossible? The creature is globular in shape, right? How would a human body imitate it's movements?

Ah, very true. B-U-T!! The exopsychology makes some assumptions, one of them being that the extraterrestrials made some observations of the Earth before landing. They know more or less we have limbs and if they are interested in contact, they will try to imitate the limbs. Or they can do some other movement we might imitate, like moving side to side, jumping or rolling, shaking, or making a series of sounds. As for the palms, the open palms are better than the clenched palms, the up and down or side movement is better than the front-back movement, etc. We can't do perfect by knowing nothing about the other race, but we can do the best we can. Does it make sense?

Originally Posted by Deborski

And where would I do that? No one has met an alien yet (except George W. Bush and look what the experience did to him!!) so where would be an encyclopedia documenting the various "concepts of the exopsychology"? Can I find it at the library...?

I found some sources online, but maybe some books exist too. It's mostly the bits and pieces I remember from the variety of places, maybe I should write a book of my own?

Originally Posted by Deborski

Yes, that would be a very tricky situation. We would not want to be useful as food, for example. I wonder what humans would be able to provide that an alien race would need?

Exactly. We don't know anything about that. But if they don't need anything at all, why did they visit Earth on the first place?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

See, even a terrestrial crocodile like myself made a mistake, what would you expect from the extraterrestrial?


Ah, very true. B-U-T!! The exopsychology makes some assumptions, one of them being that the extraterrestrials made some observations of the Earth before landing. They know more or less we have limbs and if they are interested in contact, they will try to imitate the limbs. Or they can do some other movement we might imitate, like moving side to side, jumping or rolling, shaking, or making a series of sounds. As for the palms, the open palms are better than the clenched palms, the up and down or side movement is better than the front-back movement, etc. We can't do perfect by knowing nothing about the other race, but we can do the best we can. Does it make sense?


I found some sources online, but maybe some books exist too. It's mostly the bits and pieces I remember from the variety of places, maybe I should write a book of my own?


Exactly. We don't know anything about that. But if they don't need anything at all, why did they visit Earth on the first place?

I think you are right about attempting to imitate the aliens. We would have to try, but it might easily be misunderstood.

And I look forward to seeing your links