Thread: The state of education in your country.....

Originally Posted by Ramil

The knowledge is still there in your head

The knowledge sleeps until you need it

It could be true if I had ever HAVE that knowledge in my head. But believe me, I even didn't.
Chemistry, physics, trigonometry, and many other things always were a complete "black hole" or something to me; if you think a teacher was telling us something, and I was sitting and digesting it - no, it wasn't so. It was completely "something-I-don't-understand-even-a-word-and-what-it-is-about", if (s)he was telling anything. But usually, if I am not mistaken, we just should read the book at home and get all ourselves. In the upper school I didn't even try to do that. I knew it's not mine.

Originally Posted by Оля

It could be true if I had ever HAD that knowledge in my head.

I don't think 'learning and forgetting afterwards' is a good way to invest one's time and effort. Instead of poking to kids' heads what they might need in future we could concentrate on what's they'll really need. There're lots of things that are not taught! Like the ability to clearly express one's ideas in the both written form and in speech. Basic pshycology, foreign languages.

Many disciplines may be made optional. So we'll have different diplomas, suitable for entering specific departments in universites (engineering but not literature, literature, but not medicine), as well as to be allowed for manual jobs.

Teachers work shouldn't be measured on performance of their students. The government must finance only a fixed-time period of education. Those who need more than one attempt to finish a grade, must pay to finish or leave.

Originally Posted by Ленивец

I don't think 'learning and forgetting afterwards' is a good way to invest one's time and effort. Instead of poking to kids' heads what they might need in future we could concentrate on what's they'll really need. There're lots of things that are not taught! Like the ability to clearly express one's ideas in the both written form and in speech. Basic pshycology, foreign languages.

Who would risk a guess what they will really need? One will become a writer and the other will become a physician, the third will clean the streets, the fourth will be a taxi driver.

Many disciplines may be made optional. So we'll have different diplomas, suitable for entering specific departments in universites (engineering but not literature, literature, but not medicine), as well as to be allowed for manual jobs.

That's the point. What they teach at schools is called 'общее образование' (general education or basic education) in Russian. It's only afterwards when you are already capable of deciding what's yours and what isn't you choose your speciality. An average 10 y. o. kid simply cannot decide it yet.

Here are the disciplines that I think should be taught to everybody at schools in order of importance as I see it: Russian language (lots of it), Math, Foreign language, Literature, Physics, History, Biology, Chemistry, Sociology, Psychology.

Who would risk a guess what they will really need? One will become a writer and the other will become a physician, the third will clean the streets, the fourth will be a taxi driver.

I mean the knowledge neccessary to everyone no matter whether they're writers or janitars.

An average 10 y. o. kid simply cannot decide it yet.

Why is this age?
Anyway, it's the parents who are supposed to decide for 10 y.olds (as well as for younger and older kids). Moreover, parents may have professional advice at schools.

Russian language (lots of it), Math, Foreign language, Literature, Physics, History, Biology, Chemistry, Sociology, Psychology.

No problem with this list as far as it's not supposed to be exhaustive. But the specific curriculums for each of them matter.

Originally Posted by Ленивец

Originally Posted by Ramil

An average 10 y. o. kid simply cannot decide it yet.

Why is this age?

No particular reason - just not too young and not too old.

Anyway, it's the parents who are supposed to decide for 10 y.olds (as well as for younger and older kids).

Yes, many parents do that, but what if their kids would hate them for it afterwards? Many parents dream of their kids doing things that kids themself are sick of (mine, for example, were trying to make an architect out of me).

No particular reason - just not too young and not too old

The possible curriculum specialisation may happen at an older age (say, 12, 14). If a child isn't capable to choose himself at an older age, than choosing by his parents is simply unavailable. The kid can take care for his education later, when he knows what he wants.

speaking on the your situation:

mine, for example, were trying to make an architect out of me

A kid in such circumstances would be in a better situation if he took a specialised curriculum, he recieves a smaller portion of spam. A standard school program + preparation to architectship is larger than a specialised (say, art) program.

In US, generally private schools are better, though not always.

One downside that I've experienced through 16 years of private (Catholic) education is that they put much more emphasis on maths and sciences, particularly in high school. I think the reasoning for this is that people who excel at things like calculus, biology, physics, and chemistry correspondingly become : engineers, doctors, physicists, and chemists - all which make a significant amount of money. And while private schools are in the business of providing education, they also need to stay afloat. I know that my high school relied primarily on donations from alumni to stay afloat; thus, alumni that are doctors are much more likely to donate than say, social workers. I think this may be why they never seemed to put as much emphasis on literature, writing, etc. And that I do regret.

But the pluses outnumber the negatives..

At the public high schools in my city, students are not required to go to class, and often don't. Even if they do, they hardly learn anything because they're unprepared, unmotivated, lack of parents, poor teachers, fights, etc.
There are even occasional shootings at sporting events. But my city is post-industrial, poor, and cold, things perhaps are much different in an area seeing economic growth

This is the state of education... children applying for grants and lobbying legislators to keep their schools funded! If you can, please vote for this one (every day) as I know these three schools and they really do need to stay open and funded!

With one click of your mouse, http://www.refresheverything.com/msmc, YOU can help keep three magnet middle schools fully funded!

An 8th grade student at Loiederman Middle School has applied for a $250,000 Pepsi Refresh Project Grant and has been selected as a finalist. This grant is for teacher salaries for school year 2011-2012 for ALL three schools. The $250,000 grant receiving the most votes between NOW and March 31, 2010 will WIN the $250,000 grant!!!

Loiederman is part of a three magnet school consortium located in a portion of the Montgomery County Maryland Public School district with a high minority population and percentage of students receiving free and reduced meals.

Argyle, focuses on digital design and development; Loiederman, offers a creative and performing arts focus; and Parkland, provides students the opportunity to explore math and science through aerospace technology and robotic engineering. These three non-admission test required, whole school focused format, magnet public schools are jointly called the Middle School Magnet Consortium (MSMC).

You can vote for her grant once a day ~ every day! http://www.refresheverything.com/msmc

Last week this same eighth grader met with legislators in Annapolis and is also scheduled to meet with Congressman Van Hollen's people on Capitol Hill the 2nd week of March to try and obtain more funds and a longer term funding solution.

Please help keep these important public schools fully funded. Spread the word on every list serve, Face Book, Twitter... and vote EVERY DAY for the MSMC Grant!!!
http://www.refresheverything.com/msmc
Wiget Link http://pep.si/dxWopZ

Your votes can make a difference!

Jazz, I see the winter of your discontent is not over yet. I hoped the only repercussions of your school being underfunded would be no new homemade yellow sweater for a little Lisa, no fire truck for a little Bart and no Cajun-sausage for a little Homer, but never the closing of the school itself.
Well, our virtual clicks for the right course, for, I take it, out of the US votes don’t count.

I think there are several problems with the US school systems across the board whether private or public. (and it does not rest entirely ON the system)

1. PARENTS - yep you are reading this correctly. It all starts with the parents. If you are NOT as involved with your child and his/her education, well there is a problem. Also with regard to parents is the whole "my child would NEVER" do this or that. Dear lord, kids are kids and as such require good examples to follow. So if a parent is not giving good examples or making excuses, the kids are too. Kids learn good habits and responsibility usually from those older, not their peers (though there are some exceptions)
A. side note here in regards to this. the US is so "the rights of" and "sue happy" that they forget many principles of what is right to do. (ie: I mean I believe in the basic human rights for all people, I do not believe though my child should have the power to make decisions for themselves that they may have or have not thought through to all of the possible consequences or outcomes.PLUS I am the one responsible to support them)

2. RESPECT, RESPONSIBILITY, DISCIPLINE, ACCOUNTABILITY - Please tell me where these things are? I think as soon as the government decided to allow the children to have "rights", education went down the toilet. Yes there is basic human rights. However raising a child they do not have a right to make decisions that can potential harm them (whether it is physical or otherwise) Generally children have not learned to reason through much of their words or actions. This is why it is so imperative to teach them and train them to become responsible adults.

You have to understand in the school system, discipline is almost non-existent. If a child misbehaves there are not many such consequences that rarely teach them NOT to do such things again. Suspension, detention, rarely work. Kids see a suspension from school as a mini vacation for themselves. Oft times staying at home, playing on the computer, watching tv, etc .... If a child has a discipline problem, then the school AND the parents need to work together to instill in the child the right and wrong of it.

3. TEACHERS - teachers here have become glorified babysitters. Yes there are those that truly have a passion to teach, inspire and mold the lives of these fresh young minds that walk through these doors. These teachers are far and few between. Kids are all different (their is NO patent formula for raising and or teaching children), therefore you reach out and embrace their differences and figure out, ok what IS the best way to reach these children. HOW do we get them interested in learning and motivate them to have the desire to learn more and NOT just in school, but through life? I am sorry but teachers do a huge disservice by not keeping in contact with parents too. Again, it should be a team effort and oft times falls short.

4. GOVERNMENT - government is guilty to of destroying education. As much as they speak so eloquently on wanting to have more money for education and teach America's children. Hogwash. Money going into schools and more often than not goes to line the pockets of top administrators that push paper all day long. We are losing good teachers, and good programs. All because of budget cuts. AND also because there are so many freaking guidelines, rules and red tape. UGH. God forbid a child gets hurt, if a teacher is seen comforting them it becomes a issue. Government encourages a do not get so close policy (though it is not said aloud!) ALSO with cutting funds for art (ie: music, drama, sports, etc) they have effectively and systematically done a huge disservice to kids. Studies have shown time and time again the importance of art and how it helps and influences other parts of education. (example ... a child playing an instrument in school is oft time better at math and science. go figure!)

5. PRIDE - hello ... where is the pride we use to have? Pride in education? Pride in doing a job well? Pride in helping others? Pride in family? Pride in country? Everything from media, to music, etc ....seemingly shows that it is me me me me. Ugh. It is ok to want, to desire. But freaking work for it. Work towards a good education, even if the school is not great, instill in the child to learn on their own, SHOW them learning is not just IN school, but OUT of it as well. Utilize the resources that are available for education beyond the classroom walls. Internet, libraries, art museums, battle fields, shelters, etc ... if you look (as parents) at everyday life (of course you must be genuine about it and actually show by example), there is not a moment when you can not teach your child all there is. Also instill in children then sense of "they are better than that AND they can achieve whatever it is their mind perceives and they are willing to work for".

Being smart, making a good living does not solely fall to the "education" system. Life is the best school for all and many fail to see that and thus fail in accomplishing furthering their minds and thus their lives.

I am hopping off the soap box now. =)

ooo...wanted add, other countries (from my limited experience) seem to have a great deal of expectations of their children. I like that. Why not here?

I'm an American and attended public school my whole life, including public universities. I can definitely attest well to the American education system. The absolute number one problem is that in America, the education system is seen as a form of babysitting and not necessarily a way to learn. In elementary and middle schools, the teachers spend their time addressing behavior issues and not educating. I know this because my sister is a middle school teacher, at one of the GOOD schools. American society has weakened so much, there is no longer an emphasis on knowledge. We want everyone else to adapt to us, and do as Americans. I remember even in the Honors classes at my terrible public high school, we barely learned anything. High school is about being cool, trying to not get killed or pregnant, and just coast right along. Don't get me wrong, it's definitely an amazing experience. I'm pretty sure Europeans wouldn't be able to handle it. I still learned a lot, and travelled to other institutions in other countries for my university studies.

And anyway, learning is what the student makes of it. Institutions are not important. If I wanted to learn something, I did.


***I meant to add that parents are also the problem. American parents have become self-absorbed and expect the schools to take care of their kids in every way. They don't see schools as institutions for learning, they see them as places the kids go away to for the day. Parents blame teachers way too much.

Originally Posted by emeraldeyez

I think there are several problems with the US school systems across the board whether private or public. (and it does not rest entirely ON the system)

1. PARENTS - yep you are reading this correctly. It all starts with the parents. If you are NOT as involved with your child and his/her education, well there is a problem. Also with regard to parents is the whole "my child would NEVER" do this or that. Dear lord, kids are kids and as such require good examples to follow. So if a parent is not giving good examples or making excuses, the kids are too. Kids learn good habits and responsibility usually from those older, not their peers (though there are some exceptions)
A. side note here in regards to this. the US is so "the rights of" and "sue happy" that they forget many principles of what is right to do. (ie: I mean I believe in the basic human rights for all people, I do not believe though my child should have the power to make decisions for themselves that they may have or have not thought through to all of the possible consequences or outcomes.PLUS I am the one responsible to support them)

2. RESPECT, RESPONSIBILITY, DISCIPLINE, ACCOUNTABILITY - Please tell me where these things are? I think as soon as the government decided to allow the children to have "rights", education went down the toilet. Yes there is basic human rights. However raising a child they do not have a right to make decisions that can potential harm them (whether it is physical or otherwise) Generally children have not learned to reason through much of their words or actions. This is why it is so imperative to teach them and train them to become responsible adults.

You have to understand in the school system, discipline is almost non-existent. If a child misbehaves there are not many such consequences that rarely teach them NOT to do such things again. Suspension, detention, rarely work. Kids see a suspension from school as a mini vacation for themselves. Oft times staying at home, playing on the computer, watching tv, etc .... If a child has a discipline problem, then the school AND the parents need to work together to instill in the child the right and wrong of it.

3. TEACHERS - teachers here have become glorified babysitters. Yes there are those that truly have a passion to teach, inspire and mold the lives of these fresh young minds that walk through these doors. These teachers are far and few between. Kids are all different (their is NO patent formula for raising and or teaching children), therefore you reach out and embrace their differences and figure out, ok what IS the best way to reach these children. HOW do we get them interested in learning and motivate them to have the desire to learn more and NOT just in school, but through life? I am sorry but teachers do a huge disservice by not keeping in contact with parents too. Again, it should be a team effort and oft times falls short.

4. GOVERNMENT - government is guilty to of destroying education. As much as they speak so eloquently on wanting to have more money for education and teach America's children. Hogwash. Money going into schools and more often than not goes to line the pockets of top administrators that push paper all day long. We are losing good teachers, and good programs. All because of budget cuts. AND also because there are so many freaking guidelines, rules and red tape. UGH. God forbid a child gets hurt, if a teacher is seen comforting them it becomes a issue. Government encourages a do not get so close policy (though it is not said aloud!) ALSO with cutting funds for art (ie: music, drama, sports, etc) they have effectively and systematically done a huge disservice to kids. Studies have shown time and time again the importance of art and how it helps and influences other parts of education. (example ... a child playing an instrument in school is oft time better at math and science. go figure!)

5. PRIDE - hello ... where is the pride we use to have? Pride in education? Pride in doing a job well? Pride in helping others? Pride in family? Pride in country? Everything from media, to music, etc ....seemingly shows that it is me me me me. Ugh. It is ok to want, to desire. But freaking work for it. Work towards a good education, even if the school is not great, instill in the child to learn on their own, SHOW them learning is not just IN school, but OUT of it as well. Utilize the resources that are available for education beyond the classroom walls. Internet, libraries, art museums, battle fields, shelters, etc ... if you look (as parents) at everyday life (of course you must be genuine about it and actually show by example), there is not a moment when you can not teach your child all there is. Also instill in children then sense of "they are better than that AND they can achieve whatever it is their mind perceives and they are willing to work for".

Being smart, making a good living does not solely fall to the "education" system. Life is the best school for all and many fail to see that and thus fail in accomplishing furthering their minds and thus their lives.

I am hopping off the soap box now. =)

ooo...wanted add, other countries (from my limited experience) seem to have a great deal of expectations of their children. I like that. Why not here?

I couldn't agree with you any more! It's all so true.

I don't know if this story has reached overseas or not. I know it has reached national level here... the national weekend and nightly news, some of the major newspapers... A 42 year-old DC School Principal was murdered last week in his home in Maryland. Mr. Brian Betts was just one of those amazing and rare educators and before going to be the principal in DC, he was the assistant principal and magnet coordinator at my girl's middle school.

The impact he had on students was magical. PBS and NBC had already done stories about him turning around the DC school were he worked. I know from my time with him how special a person he was and what a loss to the education world he is. Sadly, no one knows right now why or who killed him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3vYiTl3H3w
Rest in Paradize!

LIFE GOES ON
2Pac Shakur

How many brothers fell victim to the streets
rest in peace young nigga
There's a heaven for a 'g'
Be a lie if I told you that I never thought of death
my niggas
we're the last ones left
Life Goes On....

I was at high school meeting last week and at this meeting it was announced that in November, 100 students took a "pre-Accuplacer" exam. This exam tests general assessments in sentence skills, reading comprehension, arithmetic, elementary algebra and college-level mathematics. The testing assessment measures whether incoming college freshman students have the necessary skills for college or university study, or whether they would benefit from taking further practice or developmental courses designed to improve key academic skills.

Of the 100 students tested... only SEVEN, let me repeat that SEVEN, students placed proficient in ALL categories. That means if those seven students were to go to college today, they would be ready. The other 93 would need to take and pay for remedial non-credit classes AFTER they graduated from high school.

This seems to contradict the news that came out today about us being the top ranked school system in the United States...

Schools in Maryland have received another No. 1 national ranking, and one local school system had a big hand in achieving it,

according to the AP Report to the Nation

.For the fourth straight year, Maryland high school seniors ranked number one in the nation in passing Advanced Placement exams, with 29 percent of graduating seniors passing at least one AP exam with a score of 3 or above last year. The national average was 18 percent. The numbers were even higher in Montgomery County, where nearly half of graduating seniors passed an AP test. Montgomery County students accounted for 32 percent of students who passed a test statewide.While Maryland did rank number one nationally, there's still some concerns, as school systems in rural areas like Dorchester County do not have enough money to offer AP tests to its students.Elsewhere in the area, Virginia ranked No. 3 in the nation with 25.6 percent of graduating seniors registering a qualifying score in at least one AP exam. D.C. came in third from the bottom with 6.6 percent of graduating seniors passing an AP exam -- ahead of only Louisiana and Mississippi.

I think that both the USA and Europe is letting themselves down in the area of education.
Look at how they study in China, Korea, Japan, and other Asian countries.
Russians used to be top class scholars too, study really hard - I don't know what it's like now.

But large parts of Europe the school discipline is awful and the kids know almost nothing.

I read about some refugee kids coming to Sweden from Syria. They were way ahead of the Swedish kids in all subjects, because they were actually forced to sit down, pay attention and study in their school. They were totally shocked that we have all the prerequisites to have good schools here, yet the schools are a disgrace. From what I understand, things are even worse in the USA where gang members turn up with guns to school and most of the kids care only about showing up in school for the social life.

China must be laughing at us, and if we all don't get our act together in this area.

A while back, this excellent series was on the BBC.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I think that both the USA and Europe is letting itself down in the area of education.
Look at how they study in China, Korea, Japan, and other Asian countries.
Russians used to be top class scholars too, study really hard - I don't know what it's like now.

But large parts of Europe the school discipline is awful and the kids know almost nothing.

I read about some refugee kids coming to Sweden from Syria. They were way ahead of the Swedish kids in all subjects, because they were actually forced to sit down, pay attention and study in their school. They were totally shocked that we have all the prerequisites to have good schools here, yet the schools are a disgrace. From what I understand, things are even worse in the USA where gang members turn up with guns to school and most of the kids care only about showing up in school for the social life.

China must be laughing at us, and if we all don't get our act together in this area.

A while back, this excellent series was on the BBC.

The interest in schooling in any given country, while obviously a topic which can be tied to many interests (women's libbers could say "we want better education in order to make our future generations better educated about our gender rights issues"; ultra-cons could say "we want.. so people know the dangers of communism" etc etc), is ultimately about one thing, and that is INIQUITY.

"What a weird thing to say Kidkboom!" Yes, but it's true. Ultimately the paradigm I'm seeing here is not one of cooperation but of COMPETITION. So, the prize here is not "knowledge" but INIQUITY - that one country should have an imbalance of information superior to another's. That their people should have an imbalance of information superior to another people's. We can beat around the bush all day but that's the topic at hand.

So, when in a competitive paradigm, we look at the performance bottleneck. Much like a runner examines his running stance and his shoes and his knees and everything that could be a performance bottleneck, here we look at the political structures that create and maintain these scholastic functions.

To put it simply and save a lot of headache, these systems vary a lot. It's easiest to lock education into "HIGH" position when the popular or autonomous freedom/control buttons have been switched "OFF." I don't know much about Syria but they don't look to me to be a country that's highly focused on human freedoms and the ability to act autonomously as individual within the system. I.e. the autonomous freedom button is switched "OFF" or at least set to "LOW," and to put it simply, people will do what they're told to do.

I believe here in the states our trade-off is a low amount of control over the results of the individuals in the system, and a high amount of freedom for exploration given to those individuals WITHIN the system. One boon to public schooling in America almost never mentioned is the rather unique freedom to choose classes, electively and selectively, throughout Middle and High school, a privelege most countries if I'm not mistaken don't receive until college (and as to the selective nature of classes in some state-paid-for colleges in Europe, including Russia, I'm really not sure how much freedom they are given!). Whle the merit of this might be hard to see from an external point of view, it's reflective of the individuals' freedoms within the system, freedoms I suspect no Syrian student has ever been offered.

But what's to be said about the student, psychiatrically? In one country you've got a group of people who learn things having been driven to them by INTEREST and INTRIGUE, by FASCINATION, by a sheer desire to KNOW a thing. In another, you've got a group of people who learn because they are afraid of what will be done in REPERCUSSION if they don't obey this order. Those things they learn will be what they are told to learn, and they will not study with the glint of an interested student such as Einstein or Tesla, who learned what they had a passion for. Instead they will have a cold, flat, lifeless if accurate understanding of the information, which may function well if building nuclear warheads to exact specs under a harsh military timeline, but will most certainly never turn out a Dr. Suess or a John Williams.

You can tune a computer to operate at a very high efficiency, but it increases the rate of burn-out.

Really I guess it's about what you want as a result, at the end of the day.

Just my two cents.

PS - Guns in schools may seem uniquely American, but that's again because of freedoms - we're allowed to have guns as citizens here. In the UK I doubt this has ever happened, but I'm not sure I'd trade liberty for safety on this one.. =\

(Silver Lining: If Chechen terrorists take over an american school, they will have to pat down all the students)

Originally Posted by rockzmom

I was at high school meeting last week and at this meeting it was announced that in November, 100 students took a "pre-Accuplacer" exam. This exam tests general assessments in sentence skills, reading comprehension, arithmetic, elementary algebra and college-level mathematics. The testing assessment measures whether incoming college freshman students have the necessary skills for college or university study, or whether they would benefit from taking further practice or developmental courses designed to improve key academic skills.

Of the 100 students tested... only SEVEN, let me repeat that SEVEN, students placed proficient in ALL categories. That means if those seven students were to go to college today, they would be ready. The other 93 would need to take and pay for remedial non-credit classes AFTER they graduated from high school.

This seems to contradict the news that came out today about us being the top ranked school system in the United States...

Rockzmom... There's no chance in a million years that the funding behind this test comes from a source that's tied to folks who sell, oh i don't know, say, private tutoring for post high school kids who want to brush up on a few things at a high rate of pay before going to college?

KidK -I think there can be a bit too much of a good thing though - I mean free thinking and creativity.
If you visit a good private school you'll quickly notice that there is a lot more discipline. A bit of that is needed if the kids are to actually learn anything. So if the kids whos parents can afford to pay get that, then why not the regular kids? If the system just lets them hang around and do nothing, then they are just being let down.
A mix of free thinking and serious studies is surely best.

I certainly don't support cramming factories, but what I am seeing in Sweden is just way over the top. Freedom and creativity is all that counts. Kids are ignorant about subjects and disrespectful towards teachers. That is more freedom than what is good for them. Unless they want to be cheap uneducated labour in a Chinese owned factory in ten years time!

About Syrian schools - I just remember that BBC made a really long series on that too. It doesn't seem too bad. Here is an episode. The series was broadcast a few years ago. I thought it was interesting. Ugly school uniform though!