Thread: A question about Russian dating practices and "going dutch"

Hi all,

I'm sorry if this was already asked, but couldn't find any thread on it. My question is how is the concept of a man paying for a woman's dates in Russia viewed? Is it the norm for couples to split the bill, or do men prefer to pay for entertainment?

I ask, because my ex-boyfriend was Russian. He came to America when he was a teenager, but he expressed hostility towards the idea of a man paying for a woman. My ex was angry at my mom for raising me to believe in traditional courting practices. My female friend from Russia told me, "If your ex were to move back to Russia, most women wouldn't want to date him." I wanted to confirm on this forum if it's true that men in Russia are raised to be chivalrous.

Even though I'm raised in America, my parents also come from an immigrant country where going dutch is unheard of. The ability for a man to provide and taking care of his woman is still prized in my family's culture. A man paying for a date isn't about letting the woman steal his money, but it's about treating her as special and demonstrating that he will make a good husband. Even outside of dating, people in my culture offer to pay for their friends or houseguests as an act of hospitality and respect.

In modern American culture, you will find a lot of men and women that also criticize the concept of a man paying. It's acceptable to have sex on the first few dates with someone you barely know, but god forbid that you're a woman that likes to be paid for. You're automatically considered a gold-digger, you don't care about the man or you're being unfair. But, my parents didn't grow up in the feminist era where this "dutch" idea was created.

Do these values exist in Russian culture too? Maybe my ex was too influenced by American culture? He said he doesn't like to date Russian women, because he thinks they "clean their men out." I disagree, because I think it's just how some cultures raise their women.

Originally Posted by LightandBreezy

Hi all,

I've also read articles on how Russian men open the doors for women, wipe a dirty seat in the bar clean, give a woman their jacket, or carry someone across the street?

these are stereotypes, not exactly true... some men do it if it's appropriate, some not, depends on people...depends on relations between man and woman.

Originally Posted by alexsms

these are stereotypes, not exactly true... some men do it if it's appropriate, some not, depends on people...depends on relations between man and woman.

Hi, this is a double post and I'm not sure how to delete the thread.

Could you answer in the other thread where I provide a more detailed description?

LightandBreezy, you say: A man paying for a date isn't about letting the woman steal his money, but it's about treating her as special and demonstrating that he will make a good husband.

It looks like a cultural thing to me. In western thinking (in Russian culture, too) dating doesn't automatically mean they are going to marry. (Maybe it does in your culture).

I am not a social scientist, but i'll try to suggest some thoughts on the matter...

Much depends on degree of relations. If they are really a 'couple', real boy/girlfriend, not just first date, or acquaintances, the chances that the guy will pay are higher. But this is not a strict rule, some couples are flexible, sometimes they can spontaneously decide to go Dutch (doesn't mean they always do it), if they have known each other for a long time a girl could pay (might happen if the guy forgot the money when they meet casually). So, it seems stiff rules don't exist here in Russia (at least it looks so where I live), but generally and in most cases a guy pays, which psychologically is a sign, first of all, that he is capable of earning money and able to provide, take care, etc., and it is expected that the guy should pay due to this psychological interpretation.

Again, much depends on degree of relation, or on how clear the relation is.

Originally Posted by alexsms

LightandBreezy, you say: A man paying for a date isn't about letting the woman steal his money, but it's about treating her as special and demonstrating that he will make a good husband.

It looks like a cultural thing to me. In western thinking (in Russian culture, too) dating doesn't automatically mean they are going to marry. (Maybe it does in your culture).

I am not a social scientist, but i'll try to suggest some thoughts on the matter...

Much depends on degree of relations. If they are really a 'couple', real boy/girlfriend, not just first date, or acquaintances, the chances that the guy will pay are higher. But this is not a strict rule, some couples are flexible, sometimes they can spontaneously decide to go Dutch (doesn't mean they always do it), if they have known each other for a long time a girl could pay (might happen if the guy forgot the money when they meet casually). So, it seems stiff rules don't exist here in Russia (at least it looks so where I live), but generally and in most cases a guy pays, which psychologically is a sign, first of all, that he is capable of earning money and able to provide, take care, etc., and it is expected that the guy should pay due to this psychological interpretation.

Again, much depends on degree of relation, or on how clear the relation is.

Of course, you can't assume that all people are exactly the same. There are some couples in my culture that don't agree with what I just said either. From what I gather in your post, it's socially acceptable for a man to pay and seems to constitute the majority?

I know that dating doesn't always have to lead to marriage, but most people (regardless of if they're Western or not) I've met seem to crave meeting the right person eventually. How you treat someone can be indicative of whether you're serious about them or not. I hear a lot of complaints in America about how it's so hard to find a man that wants to commit. I believe that men do want to commit, but only to a woman that they deem worthy of commitment. Just like women are evaluating how a man acts on dates, men are doing the same.

Even in American culture, the person who asks for the date is supposed to be paying. If a woman asks a man out, she's expected to pay. That's understandable. A woman offering to go dutch on the first date is nicely telling the man "I'm not interested and let's just be friends." On a man's birthday, I will also offer to pay as a treat. It's his birthday, and he shouldn't have to pay.


Thanks for your reply.

I think that 20 years ago or so, that was the case with a lot of Russian guys, and some of the older guys (from the Jurassic era, like me lol) may still prefer to pay for a woman's dinner, open doors for her and other chivalrous niceties. But the younger guys are becoming more accustomed to women paying for their meals. I think a lot really depends on the individual and what his or her beliefs are, just like in the US. There are guys here who still prefer to pay the bill.

As for me, I like that gentlemanly behavior - as long as there are no strings attached, like "well I bought dinner so now you owe me sex". You can kind of get a sense about a guy usually. If I think all he wants to do is get in my pants, I will insist on paying for my own dinner.

Originally Posted by alexsms

generally and in most cases a guy pays

+500

This is an interesting question to debate ....

I think that Russians are among the most conservative Europeans in this matter, together perhaps with French and Italians and a few others.

Whether this is a good or bad thing is down to personal preference, I guess - and there are surely exceptions to every rule!

If the guy happens to be very short of money, and the girl is not... then it makes a lot more sense to go "dutch"!

But it would be a bit of a romance killer, I think!

Originally Posted by Hanna

But it would be a bit of a romance killer, I think!

exactly!

It's funny, because all of these American dating books are coming out and telling today's woman why they are so miserable in their dating lives. One of the things is "Don't pay your own way. Let a man be a man and treat you like a lady." These dating authors were arguing that commitment phobia and men not wanting to get married didn't exist the 1950's, but it all came after the feminist movement.

I have very good male American friends and my female friends' husbands that say they derive great pleasure in providing for the woman they love, even if they know she's capable of paying her own way. When I look at married couples that are really happy, the wife tells me that she rarely if ever had to go dutch.

I'm glad to see that some people here see my point of view. My ex said that "most men wouldn't want to date you if you think like that", but he was also the first boyfriend to bring up this topic. My previous ex-boyfriends from my culture never once asked me to go dutch. They would even get offended when I offered to pay.

During our first few months of dating, that was when he made the "Russian women are golddigging h*s" comment. I chose to ignore it, but that was a red flag on how he viewed women and money.

In fact the women in Russia are very greedy and this trend grows.

If some tens years ago it was normal for men to pay for women and women usually payed back honestly (they did not accept gifts from people they did not like). Also there was a tradition that they could make some dishes by themselves as a pay back for a restaurant which was paid for by a man etc.

But now the situation changed. There appeared a lot of women who just want to get money from men even without giving anything in return. Some of them ask men to pay for entertainment, and then they just disappear without a trace in search for new men. Many want a paid restaurant bill as a pre-condition for acquaintance. They call such men with Russian word "лох" which means "fool who is easy to trick".

Still others find permanent "sponsors" (the term originated from the first beauty contests where the girls had to have a "sponsor" to participate, and the "sponsors" usually were rich businessmen who payed for sex with those girls). So they just want to live at expense of such men and suck money from them. Some tell so openly.

This triggered the back-reaction from men so that many of them are afraid of becoming "лох".

These dating authors were arguing that commitment phobia and men not wanting to get married didn't exist the 1950's, but it all came after the feminist movement.

In Russia there is a strong women sexist lobby. Those women do not call themselves "feminists" but actually they employ some of the feminist arsenal. For example they want equal (by number) representation of women in
politics and work (i.e. sex quotas) while do not want the removal of laws discriminatory against men such as mandatory army service, havier criminal punishment and later pension.

Many of the policies invented by such women over time made men's life very difficult. On average Russian men live about 15 years less than women, this is the greatest difference in the world. Combined with the fact that men go to pension five years later, an average woman receives pension for 13 years while an average man for only -2 years, that is most men do not reach the pension age.

Many of the measures "to protect women" actually destroyed the marriage. This is because a man receives so many obligations with marriage that any reasonable man will not agree to marry. But in 1996 a new "innovation" was made into the law: now a love affair and a marriage actually became equated. In case of a child born, the woman can completely deprive the father of any contacts with the kid while receives alimony from the father as high as up to 50% of any his income (including selling realty he had before) for 18 years (this is to be increased to 23 soon). By contrast the state gives "mother's capital" to any mother who bore a child, but the father has no right to affect its use. This very much negatively affects the demographics: given such laws many men are afraid of bearing kids and more and more men choose not to risk and to go to Thailand for sex. Some even opt to pay to a surrogate mother so to have the rights to rise their children without a mother as did a popular pop singer Filipp Kirkorov.

Originally Posted by Anixx

In Russia there is a strong women sexist lobby...

Here is their official anthem


Текст песни «Бабы-стервы»

Что-то милый на меня ты больно сердишься,
Ну подумаешь монашкой не жила
В этом мире, как умеешь так и вертишься,
И не думай, что всегда тебя ждала

И не надо меня мучить подозреньями,
Ты мне лучше, что красивое скажи
И давай с тобой устроим день рождения
Моей маленькой, но все-таки души

[Припев]
Все мы бабы-стервы
Милый бог с тобой
Каждый кто не первый,
Тот у нас второй

[Припев]


Но уж если мы с тобою повстречалися,
Я на прошлом на своем поставлю крест
И хочу, чтоб в церкви мы с тобой венчалися,
И чтоб я была не худшей из невест

И не надо меня мучить подозреньями,
Ты мне лучше, что красивое скажи
И давай с тобой устроим день рождения
Моей маленькой, но все-таки души

[Припев]

[Припев]

[Здесь соло]
[Припев]

[Припев]

Каждый кто не первый,
Тот у нас второй

more men choose not to risk and to go to Thailand for sex.

? Those who do not go to Thailand do not have sex? To risk in what way?

This very much negatively affects the demographics:

Prove.

I hope this terrible "Russian Wife" madness could stop - I think it's degrading for women in general and Russia as a country!

I saw some commenting about this issue in a Swedish paper. The men were being sexist in a way that they would only dare to do anonymously online...
They were essentially saying "well Thai women are better than Russian women because the Russian women are so materialistic and want stuff and expect to be treated like a lady. Thai women are more submissive and accepting".

If the Russian women are AT LEAST demanding that any foreign man they are dealing with treats them like a lady, then GOOD FOR THEM!!!
I think they are a bit sad if these men have to go abroad to find a woman who will look up to them and accept them! Perhaps they should exercise a bit of self criticism instead of worrying about women being too feminist, materialistic or demanding.

I can't help but wonder what kind of situation these Russian women are in, that they are prepared to marry a foreigner that they couldn't possibly know well. I wonder how many such marriages actually survives 3 years or whatever the magical line is.....

In Kiev last summer I saw a girl of about 18 sit at a cafe and talk to a big American twice her age and size - clearly about dating related stuff.. She could hardly string a comprehensible sentence together in English, and he clearly wasn't paying much attention to what she was trying to say anyway. If that's the beginning of a "serious relationship" it would just fall to pieces once they actually are able to communicate....! If it was something else, taking place in broad daylight at a cafe then it is even more shocking.

There are good women and bad women in every country, just as there are good and bad men. To judge an entire group based on the action of a few "rotten apples" is ignorant and sad.

I've been hurt terribly by some men, but I do not hold it against all men. I have also been treated wonderfully by men. It is completely an individual thing.

I get sick of hearing about how "all Russian women are gold-diggers" etc. I also hear that "all Russian men are drunken chauvinists who beat their girlfriends" but I choose not to believe it.

You have to see each person for who they are, and not pile all of your bad experiences on them! No one deserves to suffer for the bad behavior of someone they don't know and never met. Every time you meet someone new, start with a clean slate!

As for "going to Thailand where the women are nice." Come on, that's a cop out. Men go to Thailand to have sex without having to make any commitment. In Thailand they have sex with little girls who haven't even turned 18 yet. And there is lots of RISK, too. But if some guys would rather go to Thailand and screw underage prostitutes and get diseases and they consider that less "risky" than dating and getting to know a woman as a person, then that says a lot about their character. Or lack of it.

As for the bill issue, "why don't you guys stop acting like a couple of pussies and go at the same time?" (c)

That's to say, why wouldn't each one just pay their part of the bill? And no arguments whatsoever. =)

Originally Posted by Hanna

In Kiev last summer I saw a girl of about 18 sit at a cafe and talk to a big American twice her age and size - clearly about dating related stuff.. She could hardly string a comprehensible sentence together in English, and he clearly wasn't paying much attention to what she was trying to say anyway. If that's the beginning of a "serious relationship" it would just fall to pieces once they actually are able to communicate....! If it was something else, taking place in broad daylight at a cafe then it is even more shocking.

Did you tell this to them?

I saw some commenting about this issue in a Swedish paper. The men were being sexist in a way that they would only dare to do anonymously online...
They were essentially saying "well Thai women are better than Russian women because the Russian women are so materialistic and want stuff and expect to be treated like a lady. Thai women are more submissive and accepting".

This is because Thai women are not as corrupted as Russian women yet. But I expect this not to last long...

In Kiev last summer I saw a girl of about 18 sit at a cafe and talk to a big American twice her age and size - clearly about dating related stuff.. She could hardly string a comprehensible sentence together in English, and he clearly wasn't paying much attention to what she was trying to say anyway. If that's the beginning of a "serious relationship" it would just fall to pieces once they actually are able to communicate....! If it was something else, taking place in broad daylight at a cafe then it is even more shocking.

I regularly see girls trying to catch the attention of blacks and Arabs near Russian Kremlin in Moscow. They would not even look at me. They also very much love the people from the Caucasus (Dagestan, Azerbaidjan etc).
It is indeed surprizing because one cannot expect those people to have more money than an average Russian.

In Soviet times you could get foreign currency from Westerners or move to their country, but what makes now thousands of Russian women to marry Africans, Turks, Arabs etc - I have no idea. Some even go to Egypt or Turkey to get fucked (similarly to how men go to Thailand, Brasil or Philipines). There is a lot of Russian wives in Syria: there are even communities of Russian wives to Syrians in the Internet. And this is not only Russian phenomenon. I have read that in Israel there is a lot of Jewish women who marry Palestinians (despite Israel has serious shortage of women), while there is no opposite process: there are virtually no Palestinian wives to Jews.

I only can explain it with an assertion that women prefer people with lower IQ which makes a man to appear more primatic.

Originally Posted by Deborski

In Thailand they have sex with little girls who haven't even turned 18 yet. And there is lots of RISK, too. But if some guys would rather go to Thailand and screw underage prostitutes and get diseases and they consider that less "risky" than dating and getting to know a woman as a person, then that says a lot about their character. Or lack of it.

Well, many women after 18 are much less attractive than before. And what is more important they did not yet learnt being mercantile.

Originally Posted by Deborski

than dating and getting to know a woman as a person, then that says a lot about their character.

If you mean dating agencies, it is a completely wrong way. I for once looked into a dating database of a dating agency - there were only very ugly women, sometimes with children, most after 30s. They also want a rich, lavish man.

And as I said they mostly want to marry while Russian laws has made the marriage a complete hell for a man. No normal man who knows the laws will agree to marry following such rules (also take into account that 83% of all divorces in Russia happen due to the women's initiative and a man looses all in a divorce, even his children).