Thread: Sochi Olympics and the Law against Gays in Russia +

Originally Posted by Eledhwen

Дебора, в Международном Олимпийском Комитете (МОК) есть статья, запрещающая любую политическую или социальную пропаганду. МОК уже отреагировал, как и российские спортсмены. ...Кстати, на универсиаде и чемпионате по лёгкой атлетике никаких протестов и провокаций не было.
Если говорить более серьезно — русские прекрасно осознают, что это шаг в сторону пропасти. Это исходит от самих людей, у нас прививка от этой напасти.


Человек, который стал геем или лесбиянкой должен искать помощи прежде всего у психолога, поскольку что-то сломало его естественную (природную) программу. В результате, и в пределе возможно только два варианта:
1. Добровольное или принудительное свидание с психотерапевтом, если человек не сможет переосмыслить свою ориентацию самостоятельно.
2. Человек остается наедине со своей проблемой и никому её не показывает до тех пор, пока не сможет переосмыслить свою ориентацию самостоятельно.

The idea that gay people can be "cured" is, as I have now noted multiple times, outdated and erroneous. Many psychological studies have already been done to prove this, but I can see that Russia will have to figure this out for itself. Talk to me about this again in twenty years, if I am still alive then. Meanwhile, nothing you are saying here is "new" to me. Americans used to believe the same way back in the 1950's. Religious conservatives in America still do believe this way. But the psychology community, the scientific community, agrees that being gay is not a "bad habit" or a "sin" or something that can be "cured."

Итак. Человек имеет право на нетрадиционную сексуальную ориентацию, но он не имеет права её пропагандировать и продвигать.
Дебора, понятно почему, или пояснить дополнительно (это не угроза, а аппеляция к знаниям по биологии и социологии)?

On the subject of "are they born gay or did they choose to be gay" - we can all post links to support our point of view on this. But the actual scientific studies which have been done (as opposed to wikipedia articles or links to homophobic websites) show that gay people have no choice. It's actually in their DNA.

Religious people in the west believe gays can be "cured." That has been proven wrong again and again with disastrous results. All that this supposed "therapy" does is indoctrinate people with Bible scriptures showing that homosexuality is a sin, thus shaming the people who are gay to the point where they believe there is something wrong with them. They will then wear a mask, pretend to be straight, and they will wind up not only deceiving themselves but many other people as well. Many of the subjects of this "therapy" also commit suicide from all of the shame that is heaped upon them.

In fact, the largest organization in the US dedicated to so-called "conversion therapy" has closed its doors because it was so unsuccessful, and its leader has even admitted he was wrong.

The Downfall of Exodus International Signals Change | Mia Norton

From this article:

The concepts taught by Exodus International have been backed by flawed scientific "evidence" that the anti-gay community has used to justify its agenda. In 2003 Dr. Robert L. Spitzer produced a study claiming that in interviewing 200 graduates of reparative therapy, all claimed to have had a decrease in or a complete reversal of homosexual attractions. Exodus International, Focus on the Family and other Christian-right group have clung to this slim shred of documentation that "gays can be cured." Even after Spitzer renounced that position and admitted that the study was not conclusive on the matter, these groups have continued to base their damaging treatments on his flawed and incomplete data. Exodus International has been revered by the Christian right as the leading reparative therapy group in the nation, spurring many splinter groups to crop up and follow in its likeness. Christian organizations have relied heavily on the work of Exodus International to fuel the misconception that homosexuality is a choice and a sin, and that it can and should be changed.

Originally Posted by Deborski

On the subject of "are they born gay or did they choose to be gay" - we can all post links to support our point of view on this. But the actual scientific studies which have been done (as opposed to wikipedia articles or links to homophobic websites) show that gay people have no choice. It's actually in their DNA.

Well, actually there are no facts confirming that being gay is genetic disorder. It's only "believes" and no proof

Откуда такая информация? Ты точно уверена в её достоверности?
Если это действительно мутация, то ей нельзя позволить заразить нормальных людей. Не так ли (без эмоций)? В природе такие всегда отфильтровывались (и не только по этой причине) естественным или биологическим отбором.

Originally Posted by Eledhwen

Откуда такая информация? Ты точно уверена в её достоверности?
Если это действительно мутация, то ей нельзя позволить заразить нормальных людей. Не так ли (без эмоций)? В природе такие всегда отфильтровывались (и не только по этой причине) естественным или биологическим отбором.

As I said, I guess you will just have to find out for yourself. Come back to me in 20 years and we can discuss it then.

Meanwhile, gay people can not "infect" anyone. Being gay is not "contagious." LOL

А я с ним абсолютно согласен. Дебора, не обижайся, никто тебя не оскорблял. Просто расти над собой, если собираешься жить дальше, даже если что-то кажется непоколебимой догмой.

У меня тоже проблем хватает, которые надо решать.

Originally Posted by Eledhwen

А я с ним абсолютно согласен. Дебора, не обижайся, никто тебя не оскорблял. Просто расти над собой, если собираешься жить дальше, даже если что-то кажется непоколебимой догмой.

У меня тоже проблем хватает, которые надо решать.

I'm sorry, but it does offend me when people make this a personal issue and start attacking me personally, rather than stick to the facts. Of course, I will not allow this to ruin my day or anything. But if people start insulting me, I am not going to continue discussing the subject with them.

The Real Story on Gay Genes | DiscoverMagazine.com

Methylation turns off certain sections of genetic code. So even though we inherit two copies of every gene—one from our mother, one from our father—whether the gene is methylated often determines which of the two genes will be turned on. Methylation is inherited, just as DNA is. But unlike DNA, which has an enzyme that proofreads both the original and the copy to minimize errors, methylation has no built-in checks. It can change from one generation to the next and may be influenced by diet or environment. It’s in this mutability that Bocklandt hopes to find the secret, by seeing which flipped genetic switches correlate with homosexuality.

A linkage between DNA markers on the X chromosome an... [Science. 1993] - PubMed - NCBI

The role of genetics in male sexual orientation was investigated by pedigree and linkage analyses on 114 families of homosexual men. Increased rates of same-sex orientation were found in the maternal uncles and male cousins of these subjects, but not in their fathers or paternal relatives, suggesting the possibility of sex-linked transmission in a portion of the population. DNA linkage analysis of a selected group of 40 families in which there were two gay brothers and no indication of nonmaternal transmission revealed a correlation between homosexual orientation and the inheritance of polymorphic markers on the X chromosome in approximately 64 percent of the sib-pairs tested. The linkage to markers on Xq28, the subtelomeric region of the long arm of the sex chromosome, had a multipoint lod score of 4.0 (P = 10(-5), indicating a statistical confidence level of more than 99 percent that at least one subtype of male sexual orientation is genetically influenced.

http://healthland.time.com/2012/12/1...homosexuality/

To be specific, the new theory suggests that homosexuality is caused by epigenetic marks, or “epi-marks,” related to sensitivity to hormones in the womb. These are compounds that sit on DNA and regulate how active, or inactive certain genes are, and also control when during development these genes are most prolific. Gavrilets and his colleagues believe that gene expression may regulate how a fetus responds to testosterone, the all-important male sex hormone. They further argue that epi-marks may help to buffer a female fetus from high levels of testosterone by suppressing receptors that respond to testosterone, for example, (thus ensuring normal fetal development even in the presence of a lot of testosterone) or to buffer a male fetus from low levels of testosterone by upregulating receptors that bind to the hormone (ensuring normal fetal development even in the absence of high levels of testosterone). Normally, these epi-marks are erased after they are activated, but if those marks are passed down to the next generation, the same epi-marks that protected a man in utero may cause oversensitivity to testosterone among his daughters, and the epi-marks that protected a woman in utero may lead to undersensitivity to testosterone among her sons.

Originally Posted by Deborski

The Real Story on Gay Genes | DiscoverMagazine.com

Thank you but there is still no proof. I read the articles and they were long but if you also read the whole thing you will find what I'm talking about
Here is an example
You quoting article

Methylation turns off certain sections of genetic code. So even though we inherit two copies of every gene—one from our mother, one from our father—whether the gene is methylated often determines which of the two genes will be turned on. Methylation is inherited, just as DNA is. But unlike DNA, which has an enzyme that proofreads both the original and the copy to minimize errors, methylation has no built-in checks. It can change from one generation to the next and may be influenced by diet or environment. It’s in this mutability that Bocklandt hopes to find the secret, by seeing which flipped genetic switches correlate with homosexuality.

And later the same articles says

Ideally, Bocklandt would scan the genome of each individual, looking for a methylation pattern anywhere on any chromosome that shows up repeatedly in the gay member of each twin pair. Unfortunately, at the moment it costs about $10 million a person to map out every base pair of the 46 chromosomes, so Bocklandt is looking only where he suspects to unearth genetic gold. If he finds a pattern, then he will look at the DNA beneath the methylation.

So again it's a theory that might be true and might be not true. And all I'm saying that until it is true you shouldn't say otherwise and that's all I'm saying in this regard

Moreover he's studying twins, specifically , to prove that it is beyond DNA. Because twins have the same DNA and one of the twins can be straight while the other is gay. And this is a strong argument against "born this way" nature of the cause. However it is also a strong argument against environmental cause, so there is a chance that it is social(for example one of the twins dominating the other) but again, no proof

PS: However if it is social the Russian law seems to be quite reasonable. I believe some gay people would like to be "not-gay" if they could. If being gay is not genetic but acquired during brain development then it can be prevented. As well as some kids require psychological help to give them a better chance in life (I'm not talking about gays here but rather special eds )

Originally Posted by Doomer

So again it's a theory that might be true and might be not true. And all I'm saying that until it is true you shouldn't say otherwise and that's all I'm saying in this regard.

But it's OK for you to state adamantly that people are NOT born gay, right? Just not OK for me to say they they ARE born gay.

Look, you are entitled to your opinion, Doomer. And I am entitled to mine. Just because I am not a geneticist does not mean I am wrong. And just because this is a science which is still evolving, does not make you right either.

We will agree to disagree. But do not try to shout me down and call my opinions BULLSHIT when you cannot "prove" anything either.

Originally Posted by Deborski

But it's OK for you to state adamantly that people are NOT born gay, right? Just not OK for me to say they they ARE born gay.

No, you are incorrect
I did not say that people are not born gay, I said that's it is wrong to say that they are. And again because there is no proof. And because it is a sensitive topic these small details matter.

Originally Posted by Deborski

We will agree to disagree. But do not try to shout me down and call my opinions BULLSHIT when you cannot "prove" anything either.

I am not calling them bullshit I'm calling them conclusions that are not based on facts but rather on personal believes. So it is a religion but not science.

PS: you don't like to be criticized but it seems to me that you think it is appropriate to criticize the others. I think you should play fair if you want to see respect to your opinions .

Originally Posted by Doomer

No, you are incorrect
I did not say that people are not born gay, I said that's it is wrong to say that they are. And again because there is no proof. And because it is a sensitive topic these small details matter.


I am not calling them bullshit I'm calling them conclusions that are not based on facts but rather on personal believes. So it is a religion but not science.

PS: you don't like to be criticized but it seems to me that you think it is appropriate to criticize the others. I think you should play fair if you want to see respect to your opinions .

You've made the statement many times, Doomer. I am not just responding to your latest comment, but to the many, many times you have said that it's "bullshit."

It isn't "religion" - that's just silly. I'm about as far from "religious" as you can get.

There is more evidence to support that people are born gay, than there is evidence to support that they are not. How you choose to interpret that evidence, or completely ignore it, is your choice.

It isn't criticizing you personally to tell you to stop shouting me down. It's setting boundaries. Criticizing you personally, would be to make some remark about your intelligence or your emotional control, which I have not, and will not, do.

Why A Video Of A 15-Year-Old Russian Kid Facing Homophobic Bullying Is So Horrific - SFGate

From this article:

In the video, which appears to have been shot in the winter in the suburbs of a Russian city, a 15-year-old boy has been lured to a meeting place by the fictional online persona "Uncle Dima." However, once he is there he is met by a gang of young men and women. These young men and women apparently created a fake "Uncle Dima" account on VK, a Russian social network similar to Facebook, to lure the young boy to the meeting place.

They imply — though it is difficult to trust them — that the boy was planning to have some kind of sexual conduct with "Uncle Dima" in return for the money to buy a laptop.

Clearly under duress, the 15-year-old is then forced to "confess" to being a homosexual. He is forced to reveal his full name, the school he goes to, his parents' names, home address, etc.

Perhaps what is most remarkable about the video is that the gang that attacks the boy clearly feels proud of their actions. A number appear clearly in the video, and while one does wear a mask at one point, this may be more for intimidation. At another point an older lady comes into the frame, and she commends the gang for their actions, and tells the boy to be ashamed of himself.

Warning, video includes strong language and abuse.

Проверим.
Но в любом случае, если это действительно мутация, то ей нельзя позволить распространиться на нормальных людей. Иначе это приведет к вырождению, а всё начинается именно с толерантности (безвольности).

Originally Posted by Eledhwen

Проверим.
Но в любом случае, если это действительно мутация, то ей нельзя позволить распространиться на нормальных людей. Иначе это приведет к вырождению, а всё начинается именно с толерантности (безвольности).

Yes, Hitler thought the same thing. He thought that everyone who was a "mutant" should be rounded up and "weeded out." And when we start deciding what is a "mutant" and what is "normal" - where does it end up? For now, you call gay people "mutants." What about autistic kids? Should be also weed them out? What about kids who are born with no legs and no arms? Should we round them up and put them in concentration camps?

Where does it end?

Стоп-стоп. Я говорил о запрете пропаганды. Если кто-то — человек нетрадиционной сексуальной ориентации — это его дело, но не надо перекладывать с больной головы на здоровую.

Originally Posted by Eledhwen

Стоп-стоп. Я говорил о запрете пропаганды. Если кто-то — человек нетрадиционной сексуальной ориентации — это его дело, но не надо перекладывать с больной головы на здоровую.

You specifically stated that you think "mutants" should not be allowed to exist. I simply replied that Hitler thought the same way. There is no shifting of blame to anyone. I was certainly not "blaming" anyone - but it seemed to me that you are blaming people for being gay, and insisting that it's some kind of "disease" or "mutation" which can be fixed and cured. I'm just asking you to re-examine your own thoughts.

I will not "стоп-стоп" supporting gay rights in my country. And if Russia has laws which make it illegal for me to wear something as innocent as a rainbow on my nails, I probably won't travel there any time soon. It makes me sad, because I love Russia. But at the same time, I have friends who are gay and I support them. I am not ever going to stop supporting them.

In my younger years, I was as homophobic as you are. I also thought it was a sickness, or something they could change. My thinking evolved. Like I said, talk to me again in 20 years.

Originally Posted by Deborski

You specifically stated that you think "mutants" should not be allowed to exist. I simply replied that Hitler thought the same way. There is no shifting of blame to anyone. I was certainly not "blaming" anyone - but it seemed to me that you are blaming people for being gay, and insisting that it's some kind of "disease" or "mutation" which can be fixed and cured. I'm just asking you to re-examine your own thoughts.

I will not "стоп-стоп" supporting gay rights in my country. And if Russia has laws which make it illegal for me to wear something as innocent as a rainbow on my nails, I probably won't travel there any time soon. It makes me sad, because I love Russia. But at the same time, I have friends who are gay and I support them. I am not ever going to stop supporting them.

In my younger years, I was as homophobic as you are. I also thought it was a sickness, or something they could change. My thinking evolved. Like I said, talk to me again in 20 years.

Радугу никто не запрещал.

Originally Posted by Marcus

Радугу никто не запрещал.

Gays arrested in Russia for wearing rainbow suspenders - AMERICAblog