Thread: Religion in Russia and the ex-Soviet countries

Зря ты, Лампада. Переходов на личность там не было, я лишь указал на мегакрупный провал в аргументации оппонента - неверующий обвиняет верующего, что вера и познания этого верующего не соответствует заблуждениям того неверующего. Очень типично для современной России и ничего личного.

I found the discussion between mishau_ and Юрка about whether a non-believer should креститься ("make the Sign of the Cross on oneself") quite interesting.

I was raised Catholic, and in Roman Catholic teaching, only baptized Catholics are allowed to receive the bread and wine during причащение (Communion). Not all Protestant churches have such a rule -- in some cases, any baptized Christian from any sect can receive the bread and wine.

However, the Catholic argument is that Communion is very unlike the "miracle of the loaves and fishes" -- to which everyone was welcome, including tax collectors and whores -- but is a special таинство (sacrament) only for properly baptized Catholics who have been properly educated about the ritual and have recently made a proper confession.

Now, I'm a non-Christian and do not believe that the Supreme Being would be offended if I were to "receive the Body and Blood" or participate in other Catholic rituals without belief in them. But on the rare occasions when I attend Mass (generally for family reasons), I do not do these things: I don't take the bread and wine, I don't "cross myself," I don't recite the Catholic prayers that I learned as a child, etc. Sometimes I will sing hymns that are based on the Psalms or other parts of the Ветхий Завет (Old Testament), but I usually avoid adding my voice to hymns about Jesus.

But this is not because I fear punishment in the afterlife; it's partly about respecting the beliefs of my Catholic relatives, and also that I want to set a consistent example for my nephew. (He's not nearly old enough to understand that there a variety of religious beliefs and that billions of people don't believe in Jesus -- but someday he will, and I don't want him to say, "Uncle Rob, if you don't believe in Jesus, then why do you make the sign of the cross when you come to church with us ?")

P.S. And incidentally, although I'm not Jewish, I have from time to time visited synagogue services with Jewish friends -- and I made sure to ask ahead of time: "Are there things I should NOT take part in as a non-Jew? Would it be insensitive or deceptive if a non-believing Gentile puts on a kippa/yarmukle?", etc. Again, it's not that I believe God cares much, but I know that Jews may care about such things...

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

I found the discussion between mishau_ and Юрка about whether a non-believer should креститься ("make the Sign of the Cross on oneself") quite interesting.

You misunderstood the word "креститься" (get baptized) in the context of that discussion. It is true that the word can also mean "cross oneself", but that is not what they were talking about.

Such an interesting discussion... I am following it, but I haven't got much to add myself. Just interesting to read the responses! Thanks Iorka, for answering each one of my questions separately.

The modern situation with religion in Russia and the ex USSR is really rather contradictory, I think.

One thing that nobody mentioned is that perhaps one of the reasons many are religious today is that things genuinely were very volatile and hard for many, particularly in the 1990s. Perhaps some turned to faith for the first time in their lives during this period, and remained religious since. A Russian woman told me something to that extent, although I am not sure I understood everything she said perfectly, I might have misunderstood.

On what to do in a religious service which is not your own branch of Christianity.... I think Throbert takes a very uncompromising stance! It is quite possible to just play along a bit. I don't see how any of us who actually do have faith can be 100% certain that the particular denomination we were born into is the right one. I wouldn't take communion in a Catholic church because it might offend some serious Catholics (I am Lutheran).

Orthodox Christianity seems even more ritualistic than Catholicism.... You really have to know what is about to happen and what to do to follow along! I got very self conscious about not walking into churches without covering my head, when I was in Eastern Europe. It just felt a bit insensitive, both to the locals and possibly to God (it's actually in the Bible).

My final comment is about Stalin. In many ways he seems to have been the least "orthodox" communist of all the Soviet leaders. He just went ahead and did as he pleased, without worrying about what communist doctrine would have to say about his plans. For example making religion acceptable again during the war. In this particular question I think he was right though.

Originally Posted by Hanna

One thing that nobody mentioned is that perhaps one of the reasons many are religious today is that things genuinely were very volatile and hard for many, particularly in the 1990s. Perhaps some turned to faith for the first time in their lives during this period, and remained religious since. A Russian woman told me something to that extent, although I am not sure I understood everything she said perfectly, I might have misunderstood.

I know many rather young people of about 30-40 who are religious and raise their children as Orthodox. Most of them have absolutely atheist parents or their parents came to the Church after them following their grown up children. And many of them told me that they were influenced by their religious grannies and when the freedom came they could choose their faith recalling that childish experience.