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Thread: russia now, and the Soviet Union

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    russia now, and the Soviet Union

    Hello to every one!
    I wanted to learn russian 'cause I want to know more about Russia and USSR, if someone can help me I would like to know, What are the main changes that ocurried in russia and the Former Republics in the last 12 years?...What is better the capitalism or socialism?. and what the people think? it was better with socialism or the situation is better now? How is the life (ecomical, social and political) in kasajtan, armenia, ukrania etc...Ok, thanks.

    POKA

    Jorge
    Jorge Soler!!

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    That question will open a floodgate. Today as far as I've heard, conditions are definitely improving from 12 years ago. However, you will still find a lot of support for Communism from many people who suffer from large unemployment in Russia. If you ask me, I'd say Russia will be far better off with capitalism than with communism. She has far too many resources and human power to remain a small country in the world and is recovering quickly.
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    Re: russia now, and the Soviet Union

    Quote Originally Posted by jorgesoler
    Hello to every one!
    I wanted to learn russian 'cause I want to know more about Russia and USSR, if someone can help me I would like to know,
    Well, my unilateral opinions follows (and them also may open a floodgate :P )

    What are the main changes that ocurried in russia and the Former Republics in the last 12 years?...
    In brief: changes to the worse.

    What is better the capitalism or socialism?.
    To make comparison, people must have some idea what "capitalism" is. For now, they can only compare socialism and criminal oligarchy. Strange it is, most of the people think socialism was better.

    and what the people think?
    At most, they think they made BIG mistake 12 years ago

    How is the life (ecomical, social and political) in kasajtan, armenia, ukrania etc...Ok, thanks.
    (They are "Kazakhstan" and "Ukraina") Also in brief: mostly and in Russian Federation, but even worse.
    Кр. -- сестр. тал.

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    mike
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    Questions like this are too subjective to have definitive answers.

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    Yah I guess it is a question that can only be answered if you go to Moscow. But to see previous discussions on this topic, you can go to http://www.masterrussian.com/1mforum. Of course, it isn't very complete and useful anymore since for some weird reason, most of my posts were mysteriously deleted and targeted.
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    z80
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    freedoms

    What would a system that has the economic purity of a socialist state, and the individual freedoms that democracy claims to have? hmmm.
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    Sorry

    Sorry about Kazakhstan and Ukraina, English is not my mother language so I Typed it as it is in spanish.
    Jorge Soler!!

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    Re: freedoms

    Quote Originally Posted by z80
    What would a system that has the economic purity of a socialist state, and the individual freedoms that democracy claims to have? hmmm.
    Ahh yes, the same freedom that gets you killed for speaking against your leader. The same freedom that forbids you from selling your own products. The same economic purity that led Russians to buy illegally imported bubble gum and jeans for hundreds of dollars.

    What benefits were there to the average man in the USSR? Sure they had jobs but those jobs payed them chicken feed. Why did Lenin have to revert back to capitalism to let the economy recover? Why did people have to be forced in to prevent mass emigration? What is this economic purity you talk about?

    And besides, I don't recall that much freedom under Stalin, Brezhnev, Kruschev, Lenin or even Gorbachev. The whole thing was a sham. I don't recall protesters getting shot in the streets and their families mysteriously disappearing here in the West.

    Just because Russia is in a terrible state with capitalism doesn't mean that capitalism is bad. Its because the economic infrastructure left by Communism was so inefficient and crippled and useless that sooner or later, it had to bite back.
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    z80
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    propiganda and people disappearing

    I'm afraid that in the US "communists" did disappear, along with a few other people who weren't communists but it was convenient for the government to label them so to make it easier for them to disappear.

    Both the Socialist governments of the USSR and the "Democratic" governments of the USA where more similar in there security ways than most people in the USA would like to think. The US just had to be a bit more discrete.
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  10. #10
    mike
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    Rahul: I suggest you read a biography of Big Bill Haywood, Frank Little, Eugene Debs, Kingfish, Jack London (yes, that Jack London), the Ludlow Massacre, Joe Hill, the Dunnville Massacre, the Goldmans, et al. The US has an extremely violent history against labor movements and political activists, they just don't talk about it in public schools. And your comments weren't targeted. Don't flatter yourself.

    I don't recall protesters getting shot in the streets and their families mysteriously disappearing here in the West.
    Yes, we only shoot students peacefully assembled on college campuses and spray blacks with firehoses and beat them for wanting to eat at the same restaurants as us. How dare they!

    Go to a globalization protest sometime and see all the people just walking around and singing and suddenly the police come fully dressed in riot gear and start shooting people with rubber bullets and hitting them with clubs. Of course, the evening news will say they started it but I invite you to go to one and see how many "violent agitators" there really are. They drive around in squad cars, so you cannot miss them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike
    Yes, we only shoot students peacefully assembled on college campuses and spray blacks with firehoses and beat them for wanting to eat at the same restaurants as us. How dare they!

    Go to a globalization protest sometime and see all the people just walking around and singing and suddenly the police come fully dressed in riot gear and start shooting people with rubber bullets and hitting them with clubs. Of course, the evening news will say they started it but I invite you to go to one and see how many "violent agitators" there really are. They drive around in squad cars, so you cannot miss them.
    So what you're saying is that we live in a dictatorship? Good luck with that.

    Besides, the fact that you can get books like Big Bill Haywood, Frank Little, Eugene Debs, Kingfish, Jack London, the Ludlow Massacre, Joe Hill, the Dunnville Massacre and the Goldmans is a proving a point in itself by showing that you get democracy in the West. You could never publish such books in Communist Russia that talked about the Great Purge or the Great Famine or the hundreds of other terrible things that went on.
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    Re: freedoms

    Quote Originally Posted by Rahul
    Quote Originally Posted by z80
    What would a system that has the economic purity of a socialist state, and the individual freedoms that democracy claims to have? hmmm.
    Ahh yes, the same freedom that gets you killed for speaking against your leader.
    Like Martin Luther King, for example?

    The same freedom that forbids you from selling your own products.
    What kind of "products" do you mean? Agricultural and minor industrial cooperatives perfectly existed in USSR, and were able to sell own production.

    The same economic purity that led Russians to buy illegally imported bubble gum and jeans for hundreds of dollars.

    This is the most funny thing I read in this forum for all time. Really.
    If these poor russian were able to spend *hundreds of dollars* (for jeans and bubble gum), they were millionaires, aren't they?!

    What benefits were there to the average man in the USSR? Sure they had jobs but those jobs payed them chicken feed.
    But, strangely, in USSR, as opposite to modern "independent" states, nobody was hugry, thirsty or homeless.

    Why did Lenin have to revert back to capitalism to let the economy recover?
    If you're about NEP (New Economic Policy), it was a reasonable hybrid between capitalism and socialism, which really worked.

    Why did people have to be forced in to prevent mass emigration?
    How they were "forced"?
    Beginning from 70's, emigration from USSR wasn't big problem for almost anyone. Millions emigrated.
    BTW, after seeing a *real* western life for a couple of months, many came to soviet embassies around the world, pleading they want to return. But very few were allowed back (and this is right, IMHO).

    I don't recall protesters getting shot in the streets and their families mysteriously disappearing here in the West.
    Can't recall Los Angeles massacre in April 1992?

    Its because the economic infrastructure left by Communism was so inefficient and crippled and useless that sooner or later, it had to bite back.
    Almost all people, who are rich in modern Russia, must thank "inefficient, crippled and useless economic infrastructure left by communism" for that. Oh, and thay also must not forget to thank handful of venal "reformers", which helped them to seize and steal the people's property.
    Кр. -- сестр. тал.

  13. #13
    mike
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    Yes, Rahul, that is exactly what I said. Thank you for not drawing some insane and stupid conclusion from what I wrote. How silly of me to expect such a thing.

    I don't thank our government for freedom of speech, or religion, or press or assembly. I am not going to be grateful to some establishment for deciding to have the beneficent mercy to grant me what is already mine by right. Governments can only take away freedoms, they can never give you what you had to begin with. Maybe while you are down on your knees thanking your loving master for giving you permission to breathe you will take some time to read about one of the people I mentioned.

    Here is another book to read. You may be able to identify with the title character quite a bit: http://www.ibiblio.org/gutenberg/etext95/utomc10.txt

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    Re: freedoms

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpio
    Quote Originally Posted by Rahul
    Quote Originally Posted by z80
    What would a system that has the economic purity of a socialist state, and the individual freedoms that democracy claims to have? hmmm.
    Ahh yes, the same freedom that gets you killed for speaking against your leader.
    Like Martin Luther King, for example?
    Martin Luther King was shot by a racist individual, not by a government or society as a whole. If you recall, those same radicalists shot Kennedy too showing they were acting in their own will. You will find the same sort of racist groups in every country, even today.



    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpio
    The same freedom that forbids you from selling your own products.
    What kind of "products" do you mean? Agricultural and minor industrial cooperatives perfectly existed in USSR, and were able to sell own production.
    Yah but besides that, what else did you get? What was that saying in Russia back in the '80's? Something like "In an assembly line in a factory, products that work on the first trial go to members of the Politburo. If something is found to be faulty, it is fixed and given to the military officials. If it is still faulty, it is given to the public." Besides that, there were constant shortages of goods because of the inefficient quota system. Demands would constantly fluctuate meaning certain goods were either in very short supply or wasted because of extremely low demand. In capitalism, however, you have producers competing to give people what they want making the system much much more efficient.




    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpio
    But, strangely, in USSR, as opposite to modern "independent" states, nobody was hugry, thirsty or homeless.
    That's very odd. What do you call the Great Famine of 1932? And having a home isn't very useful in Russia if you don't have any money for running water and efficient heating.




    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpio
    Quote Originally Posted by Rahul
    Why did people have to be forced in to prevent mass emigration?
    How they were "forced"?
    Beginning from 70's, emigration from USSR wasn't big problem for almost anyone. Millions emigrated.
    BTW, after seeing a *real* western life for a couple of months, many came to soviet embassies around the world, pleading they want to return. But very few were allowed back (and this is right, IMHO).
    Why do you think the Soviets built the Berlin Wall overnight? It wasn't to keep rats out. Why do you think hockey players defected so often when playing in international tournaments? Why did Igor Souvenski defect in Canada? Can you find me a source that can confirm your claim that millions wanted to return to the Soviet Union?



    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpio
    Its because the economic infrastructure left by Communism was so inefficient and crippled and useless that sooner or later, it had to bite back.
    Almost all people, who are rich in modern Russia, must thank "inefficient, crippled and useless economic infrastructure left by communism" for that. Oh, and thay also must not forget to thank handful of venal "reformers", which helped them to seize and steal the people's property.
    Well obviously. When the people of a country have all their property seized by communism, do they expect to be rich when capitalism returns?

    Communism goes against the nature of human beings. Throughout our history and evolution, people have owned possessions, traded privately and owned land. Communsim takes these possessions away, makes it illegal for you to sell goods, takes away land plots and gives it to the state, suppression of free speach(which is why only one party was allowed).

    The problem is communism is an extreme side on your value scale. When capitalism and right wing politics go to an extreme, you get fascism. Fascism leads to high unemployment, alienation, boom-slump cycle. However, the West is not a fascist society. Socialism has never truly existed in Russia, and we have yet to see it being practiced in a country as a whole. In India, there is a state called Kerala, which is where I was from. Kerala has a socialist government which was actually elected by voters, not through some revolution, and I have seen some of the benefits of it. You have the highest literacy rate in all of India, about 99%, you get many parties, freedom of speach and good social programs. Therefore, although I am not a far left supporter(communist) and I am not a far right supporter(fascist) either. I prefer a more liberal centre-right position on a value spectrum.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike
    Yes, Rahul, that is exactly what I said. Thank you for not drawing some insane and stupid conclusion from what I wrote. How silly of me to expect such a thing.

    I don't thank our government for freedom of speech, or religion, or press or assembly. I am not going to be grateful to some establishment for deciding to have the beneficent mercy to grant me what is already mine by right. Governments can only take away freedoms, they can never give you what you had to begin with. Maybe while you are down on your knees thanking your loving master for giving you permission to breathe you will take some time to read about one of the people I mentioned.

    Here is another book to read. You may be able to identify with the title character quite a bit: http://www.ibiblio.org/gutenberg/etext95/utomc10.txt
    Rights are definitely a thing that we need to have and we shouldn't thank a government for it. But rights have to be restricted, otherwise you have anarchy. But when too many rights are restricted, as in Communism, you have your basic needs and rights being ignored.
    The rights we have in the West, are definitely good. Although the system isn't perfect(don't say I didn't say that), it is the best thing we have so far. You cannot deny you don't have your rights in the US or Canada.
    Bacon and Eggs. A day's work for the chicken and... a lifetime's investment for the pig.

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    Почтенный гражданин russkayalove's Avatar
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    [quote="mike"]"The US has an extremely violent history against labor movements and political activists, they just don't talk about it in public schools."

    You dont live here, so how can you draw that conclusion. US citizens are very aware of our countries history, because we did learn extensively, about these things when we were in highschool. Not only that, but of coarse, there are plenty of people who lived these events first hand.

    "Yes, we only shoot students peacefully assembled on college campuses and spray blacks with firehoses and beat them for wanting to eat at the same restaurants as us. How dare they!"~Mike

    You act like we dont talk about our countries history, like we hide it and paint a pretty picture. Not only did Americans see and can still see if we want, live coverage of these events, but we do not forget them. We even have black history month to recognize black citizens such as Martin Luther king just to name one.

    Also, I dont thank any "loving master" for freedom, and see many other Americans doing it! I am just proud to be born into a country with freedom. I am thankful not for what freedom I have, but I am thankful that I do not have to live under communist rule, or in a twisted or depressed society where people, such as the average woman, have no rights. I'm obviously not the only one who thinks America is a great place to live; maybe you should check out the stat.'s on how many immigrants we have in this country.

    Mike......maybe you like to beleive everything you read in your books and base your opinions on that, but it looks like you need to do alittle more reading. One or even five books does not describe an entire nation and all its history. Every country has some dirt, and where there is bad, there's liable to be some good that folows and vise-versa.

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    mike
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    Uh, I do live in the US. I have for my entire life.

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    z80
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    Sucks to be you mike.

    Never mind, I still think it would be a good idea to organize a "Masterrussian.com" trip to Russia.

    We'd probably all get kicked out of the country, even the Russian Citizens !!
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    Почтенный гражданин russkayalove's Avatar
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    Oh thats strange Mike, because on the last websight it looked like you were from Norway. Maybe I looked at it wrong. Well if you do live here, what are you living in a cave or somthing? You seem to know so little about present day living here based on the comments you've made. I'd like to know where you went to highschool, because as far as I know, the history curriculum where I'm from is not much different than in other parts of the US. Maybe if you hate it so much in the US, you should just leave, because you sound pretty miserable.

  20. #20
    mike
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    Quote Originally Posted by russkayalove
    Oh thats strange Mike, because on the last websight it looked like you were from Norway.
    That was a joke.

    Well if you do live here, what are you living in a cave or somthing? You seem to know so little about present day living here based on the comments you've made.
    Really? And which ones would that be? Because all of the comments I've made are based on facts, not just unsubstantiated ad hominems like this one by you.

    I'd like to know where you went to highschool, because as far as I know, the history curriculum where I'm from is not much different than in other parts of the US. Maybe if you hate it so much in the US, you should just leave, because you sound pretty miserable.
    Yes, the history curriculum of the public school is definitely not what I relied on. Think for a second about who is deciding what you should or should not be learning in public school. Believe it or not, there are other resources. Try the library. Big place. Full of books. Free admission. Check it out.

    There's a difference between having an overwhelming disgust for the United States government and "hating" the US. If I had an overwhelming disgust for the German government of the 1930s and 1940s, would that make me anti-German? Certainly not. Same thing here.

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