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Thread: Refugees from ex Soviet Countries, to Western Europe

  1. #1
    Hanna
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    Refugees from ex Soviet Countries, to Western Europe

    Since returning to Sweden I noticed groups of people on the metro in Stockholm who are speaking in languages that I don't recognise, and suddenly switch to accented Russian, or take phone calls in Russian. They don't look Russian.

    Now I just read an article saying that these people for the most part are from Uzbekistan and that they are "political refugees. "
    Does anyone know anything about the situation in Uzbekistan?


    • Is it a terrible dictatorship where normal people have reason to fear persecution?
    • Are Uzbeks generally honest and hardworking? Somebody commented to the article I read that they are "like gypsies", I would not know.

  2. #2
    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    AFAIK

    Yes, there is heavy dictatorship in Uzbekistan (second heavy dictatorship in xUSSR after Turkmenistan). It is quite possible to be persecuted there for being too religious Muslim (even far from terrorism) or gay. Uzbekistan is very populated and very poor.

    Uzbek authorities chosen Tamerlane as a main national hero.

    Uzbeks have reputation of very conservative, patient and hard working people. There is comparably low immigration from Uzbekistan (in proportion to population). Uzbekistan is rather closed country.

    There are many ethnic Uzbeks in surrounding countries and they often are victims of local nationalism (namely in Kyrgyzstan). Uzbek refugees from ethnic conflict are not welcome in Uzbekistan and there is no effective support policy from Uzbekistan of Uzbek diaspora.

    Yes, there are some gypsies everywhere and they are most mobile.

    If a refugee can be accepted in Sweden he will definitely prefer it to Russia for better life conditions. And if a political refugee are provided with better treatment than any immigrant will prefer to be a political refugee. Even for the price of being gay.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post

    • Are Uzbeks generally honest and hardworking? Somebody commented to the article I read that they are "like gypsies", I would not know.
    Honestness and laziness do not depend on nationality, I think. They work normally in Russia. I think that the main reason for emigration is a search for better life, not political prosecution.

  4. #4
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by it-ogo View Post
    AFAIK

    Yes, there is heavy dictatorship in Uzbekistan (second heavy dictatorship in xUSSR after Turkmenistan). It is quite possible to be persecuted there for being too religious Muslim (even far from terrorism) or gay. Uzbekistan is very populated and very poor.

    Uzbek authorities chosen Tamerlane as a main national hero.

    Uzbeks have reputation of very conservative, patient and hard working people. There is comparably low immigration from Uzbekistan (in proportion to population). Uzbekistan is rather closed country.

    There are many ethnic Uzbeks in surrounding countries and they often are victims of local nationalism (namely in Kyrgyzstan). Uzbek refugees from ethnic conflict are not welcome in Uzbekistan and there is no effective support policy from Uzbekistan of Uzbek diaspora.

    Yes, there are some gypsies everywhere and they are most mobile.

    If a refugee can be accepted in Sweden he will definitely prefer it to Russia for better life conditions. And if a political refugee are provided with better treatment than any immigrant will prefer to be a political refugee. Even for the price of being gay.

    Interesting comment, and sorry I edited my comment so that yours did not make full sense.

    I simply said that many people from Uzbekistan claim that they are persecuted on the ground of being gay or very deeply religious moslems. On these grounds they receive political asylum status.

    Honestly I wonder how much better their life would be in Sweden compared with Russia.
    The asylum claim investigation takes years... During this period the person is strictly forbidden from working and has to attend language classes. They get a small stipend to live off. It is very difficult to have an "under the table" type of job in Sweden, almost impossible, so they really don't work. There are practically no single women seeking asylum and the Swedish women for the most part are nbot interested, so they are lonely. They live either on an an institution for other asylum seekers, or with their relatives. In 2 cases out of 3 they get thrown out of the country after a few years when their case has been through all legal instances. I think I'd prefer being a construction worker in Moscow, over that experience!

    But reading between the lines of the article, it's become the norm of saying they are gay, an anti-government protester or very religious.

    A few of the asylum seekers really were in trouble, because a few have been shot dead in the street.

    I agree that most of them are probably only interested in improving their economic situation. As asylum seekers I prefer Uzbeks over Afghans or Somalis because they can probably read and write, and over Iraqis who are super violent.

    Is Tamerlane the same hero that is sometimes called Timur that started lots of wars in Central Asia? Sorry I am not really up to date on things like this, I really don't know a lot about Central Asia.

  5. #5
    Почтенный гражданин Dmitry Khomichuk's Avatar
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    Tamerlane and Timur is the same man. He established state that was known as Timurid Empire
    Timur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    and over Iraqis who are super violent.
    Why do you think that they are super violent?

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    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    i wonder whether they're devote muslims and gay at the same time

  8. #8
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    Why do you think that they are super violent?
    .
    I don't think it's true for all Iraqis and I am sorry if my comment has a bit too much stereotypes in it.
    One thing I like about this forum is that there is a very low level of politically correct self censorship etc.

    But the Iraqis have moved particularly to one city in Sweden (third largest, Malmö). This city is now super violent with shootings, arson and gangs. Stories about crime there is in the paper every day. Regular Swedish people leave. It used to be a place where nothing happened but now it is called "little Baghdad". The impression is very much of violent people.
    And bear in mind that the papers are all VERY politically correct and censor this as much as they can, but if somebody blows up a pizza place called "



    I realise they are not all super violent, but they are definitely more violent than regular Swedish people.

    There is a town where a very large part of the population are Iraqis (courteousy of two Gulf wars, they are refugees)... There are regular shootings in this town, restaurants are put on fire and some horrific murders have taken place. Some groups hate each other simply because they come from different religions or towns in Iraq, so they are sworn enemies. There is talk that there are rapes of local girls etc. Obviously not everyone is guilty, but nothing of this sort happened there before this town became "Iraqi".

    And it's not surprising they are violent to be honest. First the long war with Iran, then living under the Saddam regime, then two wars, the second lasting almost a decade.

    Since they are already in Sweden I hope they will adjust, but it certainly won't happen overnight.

  9. #9
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by LXNDR View Post
    i wonder whether they're devote muslims and gay at the same time
    No they have to pick one and stick with it, I suppose...
    The article I read mentioned a single woman who had 3 children who got asylum on the grounds that she was lesbian and had a lesbian affair with a woman who had got imprisoned on political grounds. So she was saying that the Uzbek secret police had their eyes on her.
    The fact that she had 3 kids did not make anyone question her story about being lesbian.

  10. #10
    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    No they have to pick one and stick with it, I suppose...
    The article I read mentioned a single woman who had 3 children who got asylum on the grounds that she was lesbian and had a lesbian affair with a woman who had got imprisoned on political grounds. So she was saying that the Uzbek secret police had their eyes on her.
    The fact that she had 3 kids did not make anyone question her story about being lesbian.

    that's straight up crookery i can't understand why authorities of european countries buy into the BS stories the illegal immigrants feed them with
    is it because they're muslims and these have special privileges? are there christians granted asylum on religious grounds fleeing from traditionally christian countries?
    another queston is why Sweden, why not Turkey or Albania or any Middle East Arabic country?
    oh i see why, Swedish language is easier learned or they know it already

  11. #11
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by LXNDR View Post
    that's straight up crookery i can't understand why authorities of european countries buy into the BS stories the illegal immigrants feed them with
    It's a mix of guilt for not helping the Jews during the war and modern political correctness. Also from a cynical perspective it helps the problem with women in Western European countries not having quite enough children.

    But it's not really the "right" people that come. Somalis for example don't exactly fit in well in society in Sweden. They can't read or write and the women won't leave the house without wrapping themselves in a small brown tent.... The idea in Sweden is that everyone should work, including women. But there are no jobs suited for people who can't read and dress in impractical clothes.

    At the moment, the biggest refugee groups are Afganistan and Iraq, so it would help massively if nobody started wars there that these people have to flee and get entitled according to the Geneva convention to stay in whatever country they first seek asylum in.

  12. #12
    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    if Swedish people feel guilt towards the Jews does this mean that for Jew it's easier to be accepted in Sweden as an immigrant?

    but Raul Valenberg did help the Jews

    and in the circumstances you described the massacre of Breivik in the Norway doesn't surprise me a bit

  13. #13
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by LXNDR View Post
    if Swedish people feel guilt towards the Jews does this mean that for Jew it's easier to emigrate to Sweden?

    but Raul Valenberg did help the Jews

    and in the circumstances you described the massacre of Breivik in the Norway doesn't surprise me a bit
    No, it's not easier for Jews and I don't think there are a lot of Jews who would like to emigrate to Sweden anyway. Perhaps for a while during the 1990s some Jews from Eastern Europe might have been interested, but not not anymore.

    Nobody can emigrate to Sweden basically, unless they are an EU citizen, or they have certain specialist jobs that there are shortages of, in IT or dentist/doctor in the countryside...

    The people who come are refugees. They say that "if you send me home, then I will be put in prison by my government, and perhaps tortured". That is what the Uzbeks say.
    Then, according to the Geneva convention about refugees, if their claim can be verified they get to stay. Most of the countries in Western Europe have the same laws. That is why there are so many people from the Middle East and Africa in Germany and Scandinavia.

    There is a Russian oligarch who got refugee status in Great Britain and is a British citizen now. Forgotten the name, but he is on TV there quite a lot. He said "if I return to Russia I will be persecuted and may be tortured..."

    How come you know about Wallenberg? Surely he is not famous in Russia? He is our only war hero, really.... The reason he could help people was that he was a diplomat and he came from one of the most important families in Sweden. He had lots of connections, so he was able to make exceptions.

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    Почтенный гражданин capecoddah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LXNDR View Post
    i wonder whether they're devote muslims and gay at the same time
    Pick one.

    Hyper-Muslems wonder why they have problems in the US.

    "Minneapolis-St. Paul is concerned that its taxi service is deteriorating. Citing their religious beliefs, some Muslim taxi drivers from Somalia are refusing to transport customers carrying or suspected of carrying alcohol. It started with one driver a few years ago, but the average number of fare refusals has grown to about three a day, says airport spokesman Patrick Hogan. "Travelers often feel surprised and insulted," he says. "Sometimes, several drivers in a row refuse carriage."

    Leave the Sharia at the door when you enter.

    How am I going to get home with my ham sandwich and six-pack with my guide dog?
    I'm easily amused late at night...

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    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    The people who come are refugees. They say that "if you send me home, then I will be put in prison by my government, and perhaps tortured". That is what the Uzbeks say.
    Then, according to the Geneva convention about refugees, if their claim can be verified they get to stay. Most of the countries in Western Europe have the same laws. That is why there are so many people from the Middle East and Africa in Germany and Scandinavia. .
    so what they basically do is blackmail europeans, why they're allowed to get away with it is beyond me

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    There is a Russian oligarch who got refugee status in Great Britain and is a British citizen now. Forgotten the name, but he is on TV there quite a lot. He said "if I return to Russia I will be persecuted and may be tortured..."
    you're probably talking about Boris Berezovski, but in saying that he's completely honest, he crossed Putin's path and since then they're enemies, if he returns he'll share the fate of Chodorkoffski

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    How come you know about Wallenberg? Surely he is not famous in Russia? He is our only war hero, really.... The reason he could help people was that he was a diplomat and he came from one of the most important families in Sweden. He had lots of connections, so he was able to make exceptions.
    i know because he died in Soviet Union in jail but most likely was murdered there
    during the Perestroika lots of information about Stalin regime atrocities was unveiled

  16. #16
    Hanna
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    You confuse me, are you Russian?
    Has anyone who actually IS Russian heard of Wallenberg? I would have thought nobody knew or cared about him other than Jews who were saved by him, and Swedes.

    I think all officials in the USSR and modern Russia have consistently stuck to the original story that he was shot in Moscow soon after the war, and everything else is just conspiracy theories.

  17. #17
    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    You confuse me, are you Russian?
    Has anyone who actually IS Russian heard of Wallenberg? I would have thought nobody knew or cared about him other than Jews who were saved by him, and Swedes.

    I think all officials in the USSR and modern Russia have consistently stuck to the original story that he was shot in Moscow soon after the war, and everything else is just conspiracy theories.
    i'm soviet, let's put it this way but any person who is curious enough about the dark past of the USSR and conscious enough i'm sure has heard Wallenberg's name

    in a documentary about him that i watched on the History channel, it was narrated that after taking him into their custody soviets wanted to use him as bargaining chip in their talks with Western leaders, but once they realized their plan wouldn't work they just killed him

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by LXNDR View Post
    i'm soviet, let's put it this way but any person who is curious enough about the dark past of the USSR and conscious enough i'm sure has heard Wallenberg's name

    in a documentary about him that i watched on the History channel, it was narrated that after taking him into their custody soviets wanted to use him as bargaining chip in their talks with Western leaders, but once they realized their plan wouldn't work they just killed him
    Is it really proved that he was in a Soviet jail and was killed there?

  19. #19
    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    Is it really proved that he was in a Soviet jail and was killed there?
    not with 100% certainty, but at least some of his personal belongings were uncovered in Russia and given the fact that nobody knew anything about him until they were uncovered is a good indication he wasn't a free man in Russia
    but whether he was murdered or died of natural causes isn't decided upon, autopsy wasn't conducted and probably for a good reason

    you can read some on WIKI

  20. #20
    Hanna
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    This person was very famous when I grew up, incidentally because he was the only war hero that Sweden had. He saved about 10,000 Jews in Budapest from being sent to concentration camps. He did that by giving them some kind of temporary Swedish passport, and then sent them to Sweden. Some stayed but most moved to relatives in the USA or Israel.

    Yes, it's certain that Wallenberg was taken by Soviets. He was in his early 30s.

    They thought he was a spy, either for Germany or possibly America, because he was friends with some the Germans who were there. His family was very rich and he had lots of connections to the USA. The Soviets thought he was suspicious and wanted to question him. Apparently he spoke a bit Russian, and they found this suspicious too.

    He was taken to a prison in Moscow, called Ljublanka.
    The USSR and Russia has always said that he was shot there, in 1947.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swedish Wikipedia
    Russian interrogation records from March 1945 and May 1947 show that the accused had given protective Swedish passports to individuals who were on the run from Soviet authorities and anti Soviet elements"[23]
    Sweden initially accepted the story that he was dead and did not want to make a big deal out of it since lots of tragic mistakes had taken place in the course of the war, and this appeared to be such a mistake.

    However, people started to believe that the USSR was lying about Wallenberg being dead, and that he was in fact alive, in prison. In my childhood I remember reading stories about how he was quite likely alive. By then, he was a big hero because Jews in Israel and the USA wanted to thank him for saving their lives and had started trying to find out information about him.

    Several people who had been in prison in Russia and later emigrated said that while in prison, they had spoken to a person who said he was Swedish, who spoke lots of languages and generally fit the description of Wallenberg. No other Swedish citizen who fit this description was missing in Russia, so it was assumed this had to be Wallenberg. But the USSR denied it.

    Papers in America ran lots of stories about how he was alive, in the gulag.... etc. etc..
    The Swedish press picked up the story too, although they were more restrictive. Diplomats etc were asked to try to get some proof that Wallenberg was dead, like a death certificate etc.

    After the Cold War this has been thoroughly investigated, and the story that Wallenberg was shot in 1947 seems to be true. I still can't imagine why the USSR shot an innocent citizen of a neutral country two years after the war ended! And it doesn't make any logical sense that the USSR should lie to say someone is dead and keep them inprisoned instead. Particularly not since the relationship between the USSR and Sweden was quite good for the majority of the Cold War.

    I lived very near the house where Wallenberg grew up, as a child!

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