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Thread: Artificial languages (not Esperanto ;)

  1. #1
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    Artificial languages (not Esperanto ;)

    Artificial languages (not Esperanto

    Hi all. I would like to hear from you, what do you think about creation of new languages because of political reasons?

    Look at the former Yugoslavia. First it was only Croat-Serbian; Serb-Croatian and Slovenian.
    Then we had Macedonian, soon after the ww2.
    After the war in Balkans Slovenian and Macedonian are still there, as well as Serbian and Croatian, although separate.
    But now we have to more: Bosnian (Bosnjak) and Montenegrin.

    I believe that everyone has right to call their language the way they want.
    But it is very bad to lose from the eyesight-linguistic science!

    First of all, we need to know ethnic structure and country borders that not follow that.
    Language does not know for country borders. The very some dialect can be found in 3 states, spoken by 3 ethnic groups.

    Lets make an example. City of Banja Luka, Bosnia.
    Same street, house next to house. Bosnian Muslim, Serb and Croat families live there.
    Ask them what language they talk.
    Croat will say-Croatian; Serb-Serbian and Muslim-Bosnian or Bosnia.
    The most absurd thing is that all speak the same dialect of that region.
    Them means that in Croatian capital they speak different Croatian, and in Serbian Capitol of Belgrade they speak different Serbian.

    Slav Muslims in Serbia are claim now that they speak Bosnian.
    Again they neighbors, Serbs speak the very same dialect-but they speak Serbian.
    In Croatia, Serbs are speaking Serbian, but its sounds very the same as Croatian in that region. It is the same dialect as Croatian, and not the Serbian in Serbia.
    Same story with Croats in Serbia.
    Script
    Though all could theoretically use either, the scripts differ:

    official language in Croatia use exclusively the Latin alphabet
    official language in Bosnia and Herzegovina uses both Cyrillic alphabet and Latin alphabet
    official language in Serbia uses both Cyrillic alphabet and Latin alphabet
    In history, Croats, Serbs and Montenegrins have used glagolica script; Croatian form was mostly "squared", while Serb form was "mostly" rounded. Still, both peoples unrarely had mixed forms of glagolica letters used. Glagolica is oldest South Slavic script.

    Bosnians have also used script, that was less standardized, so it had more versions and names: bosanica (means the script that was originally from Bosnia), begovica (used by Bosniak nobility), bosančica. In some regions of Croatia, it was used until 1860's.

    Bosniaks used arabic script.


    I know this is very confusing, but my point is-that is very the same language with different dialects.
    Tragically comedy gets more actors with Montenegrin and possible Voyvodian
    I know, many people will be uppset now.
    The various nonsense differences aren't linguistically based, but important as is the symbolic value that is assigned to them by their ethnically, religiously, socially and politically diverse group of speakers.
    But science needs and fact need to to come at the first place, not some close minded nationalistic ideas!



    Nice maps of ex-Yugoslavia (ethnic, dielsects, borders)
    http://lrrc3.sas.upenn.edu/popcult/MAPS/srbcroat/

    [/img]

  2. #2
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    I can't even imagine how you live with all those languages. What textbooks do kids use at school when studing native language? Are they differ? Is there a special textbook for each "language"?

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    "What is the difference between a language and a dialect? - A language is a dialect with an army." ©

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    Slovenian is a clearly distinct language.
    Yes Macedonian is just a dialect of Bulgarian.
    Ingenting kan stoppa mig
    In Post-Soviet Russia internet porn downloads YOU!

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    I bet Macedonians would disagree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TATY
    Slovenian is a clearly distinct language.
    Yes Macedonian is just a dialect of Bulgarian.


    Yes, and may be Slovak is just a dialect of Czech,
    and may be Ukiainian is just a dialect of Russian,
    and may be Dutch is just a dialect of German,
    and may be USEnglish is just a dialect of GBEnglish,
    and may be we are all just a type of a dialect...

    Yes, it is possible, guess...

    There are so many languages which have done their bloody fight for they use in the past to say "any language is just a dialect." So many people have died, so many people have been persecuted, so many of them were abused to simply say --any language is just a dialect of the other one--, I only guess. Guess.

    It is important to look ahead, to look forward for better tomorows because the victims. Because the crazy amount of victims been killed for their nation, language and customs.

    Idea of universall language is nice to me. But hard to proceed.

    Please, come somebody and stop the world killing, please come somebody and tell me, this is only bad dream and people are not so bad.

    Wake me up -- wake univerall language up -- wake up language of people, wakes it for people
    Я ЕСТЬ потому что мы ЕСТЬ. Чтобы были МЫ -- ЕСТЬ Я.
    ПРОЛЕТАРИИ ВСЕХ СТРАН, СОЕДИНЯЙТЕСЬ!

  7. #7
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    Standard Language is very much a political categorization and has very little to do with sicence. The standard forms of Croatian and Serbian are intelligible between each other but represent different historical traditions. Serbo-Croatian was the attempted merger of those traditions into a single one which was just as political a move than the reseparating into Serbian and Croatian in the 1990's. Neither standard were anything new as both were layed out in the 19th century before the attempted complete convergence during socialism.

    The point is that the insistence by some over re-convergence is just as political as their separation, because of the implications that "Serbo-Croatian" carries about political union.

    It's interesting the Hindi and Urdu languages share almost the same relationship to each other as Serbian and Croatian do, but you never hear nearly so much crying over their separate standards as you do over this.
    "In Wenceslas Square, in Prague, a guy is throwing up. Another guy comes up to him, pulls a long face, shakes his head, and says: 'I know just what you mean.'"
    -Milan Kundera

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    International Pan-Slavic language for all Slavs.

    S L O V A N O (S-lingva)

    MODERNE KONSTRUKTE SLOVANE LINGVA
    ( modern constructed slavic language )

    BAZE GRAMATIKA - basic grammar


    ABCD - ABC
    (26 literi – 26 letters)
    a, b, c, c‘, d, e, f, g, h, h‘, i, j, k, l, m, n, o, p, r, s, s‘, t, u, v, z, z‘



    S-lingva English ( pronunciation )

    c' - ch ( cheese )
    s' - sh ( ash )
    z' - zh ( pleasure, garage )
    h' - kh (Kazakhstan, Mikhail)
    dz' - j / g ( Jersey, gesture )

    Slovosledenie es volne.
    Kien fonem es spojite so en litera a kien litera reprezentit en fonem.
    Ak vi slis’it slovo vi moz’et toi skribit a ked vi toi vidit vi moz’et toi gvorit.
    Tam ne egzistit neki stres na slog

    Word order is free.
    The spelling is a cinch: every phoneme matches one letter, and every letter matches one phoneme.
    If you hear a word, you can spell it; if you see it, you can say it.
    There is no stress on syllables.


    Letters q, w, y, x, ch are used only in personal names and geographical names :
    (Lydia,Sydney,Cyprus, Felix, Egypt, Willson, New York, Quito, Mexiko,Chemnitz, Londin,
    Paris, Beograd, Moskva, Praha, Roma, Wars'awa, Kahira, Kipros
    Vele Britania (Great Britain), Anglia (England), Bavaria(Bavaria), Viena (Viena)

    Spelling in foreign words : olimpiada, fizika, dinamika, simbol, bicikel



    SUBSTANTIVI - Nouns

    Singular of nouns is in natural form :
    sport, otec (father), mama, dieva (girl), junak (boy), deta (child), teta (aunt), zem (earth, soil), reka (river), mesto (place)
    more (sea), ezero (lake), planeta, kosmos, galaksia, veda (science), radio, komputer, ekipaz' (crew), gord (fortress)
    vokabular (vocabulary), denar (money), dom (house), mur (wall), osada (village), grod (town), stat (state) luc‘ (light)

    Plural is done by suffix : - i
    luc‘ – luc‘i, otec - oteci, brat - brati, komputer - komputeri, sport - sporti, aeroplan - aeroplani, aviator – aviatori,
    ekipaz' - ekipaz'i, mesec - meseci, den - deni, tiden - tideni, noc - noci, rok - roki, den - deni, put - puti, denar – denari

    Nouns ended in wovel :
    nome - nomi, mama - mami, auto - auti, krilo - krili, herba - herbi,
    larva - larvi kamera - kameri, posta - posti, funga - fungi, raketa - raketi, triska - triski
    planeta - planeti, litera - literi, prognoza - prognozi, industria – industrii, variacia - variacii

    Nouns ended in difthongs : -ia, -io, -eo :
    instrukcia - instrukcii, bakteria - bakterii, tragedia - tragedii, televizia - televizii, radio - radii,
    evolucia - evolucii, distancia - distancii, galaksia - galaksii, video – videi
    Nouns of living things with gender : ten, ta

    NOUNS OF MALE GENDER - before noun is : ten
    ten muz', ten kon, ten pes, ten orol, ten krokodil, ten lev, ten slon, ten delfin,
    ten direktor, ten s'ofer, ten europan, ten robotar, ten traktorist

    NOUNS OF FEMALE GENDER- before noun : ta / - a
    ta germanian(a) - german woman, ta anglian(a) - english woman, ta slovakian(a) - slovak woman,
    ta europan(a) - european woman, ta s'ofer(a) - she driver, ta kosmonaut(a) - she astronaut
    ta direktor(a) - she director, ta robotar(a) - she worker, ta vedar(a) / ta siencist(a) - she scientist
    ta orol - she eagle, ta slon - she elephant, ta lev - she lion, ta kot - cat, ta delfin - she dolphin
    · Ending –a can be added as a suffix to the noun of female gender of living person e.g.
    s’ofera, europana, kosmonauta, vedara whereby ta doesn’t have to be used before the noun.

    GENDER NOT SPECIFIED : to
    to lev(lion), to medved(bear), to kot(cat/tom cat), to hus(goos,drake), to delfin(dolphin), to tur (cow, bull)
    to dub(oak), to javor(maple), to lipa(lime), to breza(birch), to motil(butterfly), to riba(fish), to pteric(bird),
    to zover(animal), to savec(mamal), to insekt(insect), to mis‘(mouse)
    to komputer, to stol(table), to strom(tree), to olej(oil), to stolica(chair), to hrnec(pot), to dom(house), to ulica(street),
    to autobus(bus), to list(leaf), to zem(soil,earth), to mas'ina(machine,engine), to olem(oil),
    Cubs are created by : june e.g. june kon - foal, june kot - kitten, june kura - chicken, june lev - lion cub

    ADJEKTIVI - Adjectives
    Finala - ending : e
    pekne - pretty, dobre - good, rih'le - quick, interesante - interesting, slabe - weak, mocne - powerful, terme - warm
    astere noc - starry night, terme diferencia - warm difference, polare - polar, pale – combustible, mizerne - bad
    Globe gravitacia - Earth gravitation, Lune luc‘ - moon shine, dene tiket - daily ticket, komputere igra-computer game,
    televizie program - television programme, Severe Polare Cirk - North Polar Circus, nove - new, Nova - new created star
    Nouns ending in - e remain unchanged (more breg - sea coast)

    ADVERBI - Adverbs
    Finala - ending : o
    dobro - well, pekno - nice, pomalo - slowly, stalo - still, rih'lo - qwickly, nahlo - suddenly, malo - little, few,
    termo - warmly, mezo - middle, between, among
    Nouns ending in - o remain unchanged : radio transmite - radio transmitted, racio narobite - rationally done
    termo odevite - warmly dressed

    Kreatenie adverbiov zo verbi – Creating adverbs from verbs
    Adding - o to infinitive of verb :
    skribit / skribito (to write / in writing) , sunit / sunito (to sunbathe / sunny), videt / videto (to see / visibly)

    Gradacia ov adjektivi a adverbi - Graduation of adjectives and adverbs :
    vic - more, -er
    nai - most, -est

    vic pomalo(slower) / nai pomalo(slowest), vic pekno(nicer) / nai pekno(nicest),
    vic dobre(better) / nai dobre(best), vic malo(less/lesser) / nai malo(the least)
    Tie es vic rih'le kao ten - They are quicker then he.
    Ta il nai pomale zo vse - She was the slowest of all.

    PREPOZICII - Prepositions
    pri - at, na - on, vo – in (inside), od - from, do - into, cez - over, pod - under, nad - above, so - with, s - by means of,
    zo - from inside out, po - after, pred - before / in front of, za - behind, mezo - between, among, middle, o - about/at,
    via – through, by means of, ku – to (direction)

    o pette c'as - at five o'clock
    o pet c'asi - in five hours

    Junak idet do les - A boy is going into a forest
    Junak idet ku les - A boy is going to a forest
    Junak es vo les - A boy is in a forest

    Skolar idet do skola – A pupil goes into a school
    Skolar es vo skola – A pupil is in a school
    Skolar idet zo skola – A pupil goes from a school
    Skolar idet ku skola – A pupil goes to / towards a school



    KONJUNKCII - Conjuctions
    a, i (and), tez'(also, too, as well)


    VERBI - Verbs
    Infinitive of verb - ending : - t
    sportit - to sport, grat - to play, idit - to go, gvarit - to speak, spat - to sleep, vedet - to know, kalkulit - to count videt - to see
    luc’it - to shine, publikit - to publish, audit - to listen/to hear skopit - to scope, observit - to watch, medikit - to heal

    Creating the verbs from nouns is unlimited (sarkazmus - sarkazit, litera - literit, fonia - fonit, skopenie - skopit,
    skribenie – skribit, observenie - observit, maenie - mat, laborenie - laborit, skienie - skit, komputenie - komputit,
    agrenie - agrit, medikenie – medikit, luc‘ – luc’it, vera – verit,


    - preterite c'as - past tense : - l
    - prezente c'as - present tense : - t (infinitive)
    - future c'as - future tense : - m

    Mi gvarit - We speak / talk / say
    Mi gvaril - We spoke / talked / said
    Mi gvarim - We will speak / talk / say

    Creating of verbs from nouns is unlimited e.g. sarkazmus - sarkazit (sarcasm - to sarcas),
    literar – literit (a writer - to write), fonia – fonit (phono - to phono) etc.

    Konjugacia verbov - Conjugation of verb bit - to be


    Preterite c'as - Past Tense :
    ja il - I was mi il - we were
    ti il - you were vi il - you were
    ten il - he was tie il - they are
    ta il - she was
    to il - it was

    Prezente c'as - Present Tense :
    ja es - I am mi es - we are
    ti es - you are vi es - you are
    ten es - he is tie es - they are
    ta es - she is
    to es - is is


    Future c'as - Future Tense :
    ja em - I shall / will mi em - we shall / will
    ti em - you will vi em - you will
    ten em - he will tie em - they will
    ta em - she will
    to em - it will

    KONDICIONALE FORMA - Conditional : bi
    ja bi muset - I would have to
    ja bi trebit - I would need to (duty)
    ja bi smiet - I would be allowed to
    ja bi mogut - I would be able to
    KONDICIONALE FORMA PRETERITA - Past Conditional : bi + - l
    ja bi musel - I would have had to
    ja bi trebil - I would have needed to (duty)
    ja bi smiel - I would have been allowed to
    ja bi mog'il - I would have been able to

    imat - to have(posses), trebit - to be to (duty), h'cet - to want
    moz‘et - can, smiet - may, muset - must,

    ja imat - I have
    ja imal - I had
    ja imam - I will have
    ja bi imat - I would have
    ja bi imal - I would have had

    ja trebit - I am to / need to
    ja trebil - I was to / needed to
    ja trebim - I will need to
    ja bi trebit - I would need to
    ja bi trebil - I would have needed to

    ja h'cet - I want
    ja h'cel - I wanted
    ja h'cem - I will want
    ja bi h'cet - I would want
    ja bi h'cel - I would have wanted

    ja moz‘et - I can
    ja moz‘el - I could[was able]
    ja moz‘em - I will be able
    ja bi moz‘et - I would be able
    ja bi moz‘el - I would have been able

    ja smiet - I may
    ja smiel - I might
    ja smiem - I will be allowed to
    ja bi smiet - I would be allowed to
    ja bi smiel - I would have been allowed to

    ja muset - I must
    ja musel - I had to
    ja musem - I will have to
    ja bi muset - I would have to
    ja bi musel - I would have had to



    KVESTIA - question
    Robit ti ? - Do you work / Are you working ?
    Robil ti ? - Did you work / Were you working ?
    Robem ti ? - Will you work / Will you be working ?


    NEGACIA - negation ne
    ja ne robit - I do not do/work
    ja ne robil - I did not do/work
    ja ne robem - I will not do/work


    PASIVE ROD VERBOV - Pasive Voice of Verb :

    Infinitive + suffix - e
    Libro es skribite s moi priatel - A book is written by my friend
    Libro il skribite s moi priatel - A book was written by my friend
    Libro em skribite s moi priatel - A book will be written by my friend


    PERFEKTE FORMA VERBOV - Perfect active voice of verb : na -
    na + infinitive (naskribit, narobit, naedukit, naplanit, navarit, naplantit)
    na + - l ( e.g. Ja naskribil to - I have written it )
    na + - m (e.g. Ja narobim to do sutra - I will have done it by tomorrow)

    Tie bi narobil to, ak bil tam - They would have done it if they had been there
    (bi + il = bil)

    Tie naskribim to - They will have written it
    Tie naskribil to - They have written it


    PERFEKTE PASIVE FORMA VERBOV - perfect passive voice of verb na .... te

    Libro es naskribite s moi priatel - A book has been written by my friend
    Libro es ne naskribite s moi priatel - A book has not been written by my friend
    Libro il naskribite s moi priatel - A book had been written by my friend
    Libro il ne naskribite s moi priatel - A book had not been written by my friend
    Libro em naskribite s moi priatel - A book will have been written by my friend
    Libro em ne naskribite s moi priatel - A book will not have been written by my friend

    MENENIE STATUSOV - changing of status : pre

    vic prevelit - to get bigger vic premalit - to get smaller
    vic prevelij - get bigger ! vic premalij - get smaller ! (imperativ)
    pretmavit - to get dark pretmavite - darken
    presvitit - to get enlighten presvitite - enlighten
    prestaret - to grow old prestarete - grown old
    prekamenit - to turn to stone prekamenite - turned to stone


    OPOZIT - oposite of activity : roz
    vazat / rozvazat - to tie / to untie
    kluc'it / rozkluc'it - to lock / to unlock
    budovat / rozbudovat - to build / to demolish

    Enokrate aktenie – one-time action : u
    slis’al – uslis’al
    videl – uvidel

    KREATENIE SUBSTANTIVIOV ZO VERBI - Making nouns from verbs :
    without vowel + t ending and adding - enie , plural – eni

    robit - robenie(to do/work - doing/working), skribit - skribenie(to write-writing), numerit - numerenie(to count-counting),
    dat - daenie(to give - giving), agrit - agrenie(to crop - cropping), laborit - laborenie(to labour - labouring)
    daeni, robeni, skribeni, numereni, agreni, laboreni
    * one syllable words are created by omiting just last -t ending : dat - daenie -daeni, spat - spaenie - spaeni

    CIVIL NACIONOV - Citizen of nation : an / ani (pl.)

    Germanian(i), Italian(i), Rusian(i), Amerikan(i), C'eh'ian(i), Slovakian(i), Polakian(i), Hungarian(i), Spanian(i),
    Francian(i), S'vedian(i), Ukrainan(i),Europan(i), Japonian(i), Arabian(i), Afrikan(i), Australian(i),Eskiman(i)
    ameroindian(i), judean(i), cigan(i)

    LINGVA - language - ending : - o

    germanio - german, rusio - russian, slovakio - slovak, c'eh'io - czech, anglio - english, belorusio - belarussian
    polakio - polish, slovenio - slovenian, ukraino - ukrainian, latvio - latvian, litvio - lithuanian, estonio - estonian,
    japonio, arabio, francio, italio, spanio, holandio, serbio, h'rvatio, macedonio, bulgario, esperanto, slovio, ido,
    slovano, kelto, hebreio, koptio, staroegypto, kec'uano, maio, azteko, arabio, c'ino, basko, katalanio, afrikano,
    but : interlingva, slavisk, proslava, slovianski, slezan, volapuk, occidental, novial, latina, glosa, dunia
    germane lingvi - germanic languages, romane lingvi - romance languages, slovane lingvi - slavic languages
    rusie lingva - russian language, slovakie lingva - slovak language, anglie lingva - english language
    or : lingva germanio, lingva rusio, lingva slovakio, lingva anglio, lingva c’ino, lingva polakio

    PARTICIP - s -enie

    S s‘oferenie auto tie slis’al muzika - Driving a car they were listening to music

    DEKLINACIA OV SUBSTANTIVI - Declination of Nouns

    Nominativ To es dom - It is a house
    Genitiv ov To es auto ov otec - It is the car of father
    Dativ om Tie em dat to libro om deti - You will give the book to children

    Akuzativ Tie nabudoval dom - They built up a house

    Lokal : o - about, on
    ( o mama - about mum, o otec - about dad, o nam - about us, o me - about me,
    o te - about you(sg.), o tenu - about him, o tau - about her, o tiem - about them )
    Instrumental : s - by
    ( s mama - by mum, s otec - by dad, s nam - by us, s me - by me, s te - by you,
    s tenu - by him, s tau - by her, s tiem - by them)


    In case of substantive in accusative in the beginning of a sentence this is in passive voice :
    Dom il nabudovate s tiem - The dom was buit up by them.

    To es govorite o te - It is spoken about you.
    Auto es s'oferite s otec - A car is driven by father
    Kafe es servite s c'as'iner - Coffee is served by a waiter
    Kafe es so cukor - Coffee is with sugar
    Bit s te, ja bi ne idet tam - Being you I wouldn

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