Thread: Perfect English (A question to native English speakers)

А на мой вопрос кто-нибудь ответит? Интересно все же, какие ошибки русскоязычных esl learners бросаются в глаза и мешают пониманию больше всего.
(Извини, Ramil, что в твою тему со своим самоваром. )

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Can you tell what mistakes of esl learners are more irritating than the others? Or what aspect of the language (word usage, articles, etc.) is more important for making an impression of "perfect english"?

Like I said, I basically consider the source of the error more annoying than the error itself. Articles, meh. They mark you as a foreigner but I don't think they're that frustrating for a foreigner. Word order could be annoying if it's really out of whack. Using strange words, that is, words that a native speaker would never use in that context could make an argument appear disjointed. I think one of the biggest things, in addition to articles, in terms of frequency is the use of verbs -- a lot of times, that's a marker of a foreigner, since they pick the wrong verbs/forms/constructs. But again, not that "annoying," just somewhat confusing at times.

Originally Posted by basurero

Кстати, твой английский настолько хорош, что мне было очень трудно найти ошибки.

Или, может быть твой английский настолько плох, что тебе было очень трудно найти ошибки. Это -- очень философский вопрос с никаким ясным ответом...

Originally Posted by Бармалей

Originally Posted by basurero

Кстати, твой английский настолько хорош, что мне было очень трудно найти ошибки.

Или, может быть твой английский настолько плох, что тебе было очень трудно найти ошибки. Это -- очень философский вопрос с никаким ясным ответом...

using philosophical line of reasoning, knowledge of English is relative.
relative to you, my English is bad, but relative to me, your English is bad

In my experience, the last hurdle to English prefection for foreigners is slightly unnatural choice of tense and mood. All those "would have had" and "should have been" and "will have been doing" sentences.

Originally Posted by Бармалей

Originally Posted by basurero

Кстати, твой английский настолько хорош, что мне было очень трудно найти ошибки.

Или, может быть, твой английский настолько плох, что тебе было бы очень трудно найти ошибки. Это _ очень философский вопрос, не имеющий ясного ответа...

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I've lived around so many different languages and non-native speakers, and had so many ESL/legal and business students, that for me I can usually understand the meaning and context even if word order, articles, conditionals and other grammar points are wrong. Studying Russian has helped me develop this skill.

I think the only grammar that catches my attention anymore are "phrasal verbs"... when a foreign speaker thinks that he or she has learned a phrasal verb (usually from an English movie or tv show, which is using "street English"...not "perfect English")...but with the incorrect meaning... and then he or she attempts to use the phrasal verb, usually also with incorrect word order. This, in my opinion is a very difficult hurdle for foreign speakers, who are trying to sound as a native English speaker.

As a teacher, this problem is difficult to correct in many students.

By the way... there is no "perfect English"... there are probably 20-25 different variations of English, from the countries and the provinces within the English-speaking countries... but these variations are mainly vocabulary, and colloquial (spoken) differences... with a few minor grammar differences.

For example... Most American English Professors would not agree that "Oxford English" (the old "standard") is the "correct", or "perfect" English.

Who speaks "correct", "perfect" Russian? Someone in St. Petersburg? Moscow? Novosibirsk? Vladivostok?

But... technical or legal documents and contracts, which are what I teach and work with, are very different. No one speaks English in the form or grammar of a legal contract. So... actually... I think "Legal English" is a another variation of English.

As an attorney, I think that "Legal English" is actually as close to "perfect" English as possible. "Legal English" with includes a mix of Latin words and phrases, is designed to be understand by any English speaking attorney, anywhere, even one thousand years from now. It is designed for "permanent" (or as close to permanent as possible) understanding of the meaning and intention of the document. But, as I said... nobody speaks using this form of English.

But... 1,000 years from now, who knows? There may be only a few languages remaining... 2 or 3 mixed languages of English/Russian/Chinese/Japanese/Spanish/German/French... these are already developing in our lifetimes... or there may be a new global "common" language.

More information than you probably wanted, Ramil.

I'd describe 'perfect English' as English without any errors.

English speakers are remarkably tolerant of differences in style, vocabulary etc brought about by geography, to the point where they are completely irrelevant to any discussion of 'perfect English'.

I do not hear "errors" when I listen to someone from New Zealand, or Canada, or any other English speaking country, I hear differences in style, and I am certain it is the same for them when listening to me. That is a world away from the sort of mistakes foreigners make which jump out of the air like the sound of nails on a blackboard.

Originally Posted by scotcher

I'd describe 'perfect English' as English without any errors.

English speakers are remarkably tolerant of differences in style, vocabulary etc brought about by geography, to the point where they are completely irrelevant to any discussion of 'perfect English'.

I do not hear "errors" when I listen to someone from New Zealand, or Canada, or any other English speaking country, I hear differences in style, and I am certain it is the same for them when listening to me. That is a world away from the sort of mistakes foreigners make which jump out of the air like the sound of nails on a blackboard.

There are "errors", as you describe them... but usually in vocabulary, usage and spelling.

For example... what is the correct spelling... "Center"... or is it "Centre"?

Minor differences.

One of my closest friends in Madrid is an excellent Irish ESL teacher, and when he speaks to Americans, he is very difficult to understand... grammar and vocabulary. Many Americans would say he makes many errors, especially in usage. But, in my opinion, he speaks "perfect" Irish English.

I understand your meaning... differences in style, and not "errors".

But there are several important differences between British English, and American English. Errors? Or differences in style?

Which English "style" is the "perfect" English? There are important grammar, usage, vocabulary and spelling differences between the various forms of English.

A person who learns American English "perfectly", probably cannot pass the British English Proficiency exam. And the same in reverse, for a person who learns British English "perfectly", probably cannot pass an American English Proficiency exam.

Interestingly... I understand Australian English much easier than British English.

Originally Posted by Dobry

Originally Posted by scotcher

I'd describe 'perfect English' as English without any errors.

English speakers are remarkably tolerant of differences in style, vocabulary etc brought about by geography, to the point where they are completely irrelevant to any discussion of 'perfect English'.

I do not hear "errors" when I listen to someone from New Zealand, or Canada, or any other English speaking country, I hear differences in style, and I am certain it is the same for them when listening to me. That is a world away from the sort of mistakes foreigners make which jump out of the air like the sound of nails on a blackboard.

There are "errors", as you describe them... but usually in vocabulary, usage and spelling.

For example... what is the correct spelling... "Center"... or is it "Centre"?

Minor differences.

One of my closest friends in Madrid is an excellent Irish ESL teacher, and when he speaks to Americans, he is very difficult to understand... grammar and vocabulary. Many Americans would say he makes many errors, especially in usage. But, in my opinion, he speaks "perfect" Irish English.

I understand your meaning... differences in style, and not "errors".

But there are several important differences between British English, and American English. Errors? Or differences in style?

Which English "style" is the "perfect" English? There are important grammar, usage, vocabulary and spelling differences between the various forms of English.

A person who learns American English "perfectly", probably cannot pass the British English Proficiency exam. And the same in reverse, for a person who learns British English "perfectly", probably cannot pass an American English Proficiency exam.

Interestingly... I understand Australian English much easier than British English.

I very much doubt that an American wouldn't pass a British exam or vice versa. It's the same bloody language, just with regional variations. It's 99% mutually intelligible. Bob's your uncle? What the heck does that mean? But you certainly know, as some guy from Chicago, that it's just an exasperation. As much as it pains me, I think Scotcher's definition is right on. I may not understand every single word a Brit ever udders, but I certainly understand the overwhelming majority of what he said -- certainly enough to pass your proficency exam. Dom DeLuise, now that's another matter...

Firstly, you are talking total nonsense Dobry. When an American speaks grammaticaly correct American English, reasonably intelligent people from other parts of the English speaking world do not hear errors, no matter how much the vocabulary, syntax or grammar differs from their own 'standard'. They are speaking 'perfect' English.

Secondly, it is quite clear from the context what Ramil meant by 'perfect', and your nit-picking over that definition is adding absolutely nothing whatsoever to the discussion.

I'm confused.
"Legal English" ... is designed to be understand by any English speaking attorney..."
I don't recognize this constraction (in bold). What is it? Shouldn't it be "understood"?

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To the question about how to know whether you're reading a Chinese translator's piece of work...I recommend reading something in English that depends more largely on articles than normal. Plato's Meno, for example. You would have to read it in translation, but I don't think the translator would be Chinese.

Originally Posted by E-learner

I'm confused.
"Legal English" ... is designed to be understand by any English speaking attorney..."
I don't recognize this constraction (in bold). What is it? Shouldn't it be "understood"?

Indeed it should be. I am betting Professor Dobry is kicking himself right now

Originally Posted by Бармалей

I very much doubt that an American wouldn't pass a British exam or vice versa. It's the same bloody language, just with regional variations. It's 99% mutually intelligible. Bob's your uncle? What the heck does that mean? But you certainly know, as some guy from Chicago, that it's just an exasperation. As much as it pains me, I think Scotcher's definition is right on. I may not understand every single word a Brit ever udders, but I certainly understand the overwhelming majority of what he said -- certainly enough to pass your proficency exam. Dom DeLuise, now that's another matter...

Бармалей,

I'm not talking about a TEFL exam, to enter and study at University... do you know what the Proficiency Exam is?

Most English speakers would fail it. It is to professional translators/interpreters and professors, what the Medical Boards, Bar exams or Accounting exams are to doctors, attorneys and accountants.

It's English at a Ph.D level. I doubt that I could pass it without about 6 months of intensive study.

For example... if I wanted to teach at MGU as an Academic in Russian and Russian linguistics (senior tenured professor/researcher)... I would need to be able to pass Russia's version of the Proficiency Exam.

The Proficiency Exam is not about fluency... it's about intimate and extremely detailed knowledge of the grammar, roots, usage, vocabulary, etc... again, at the level of a Ph.D. or simultaneous translator (such as U.N. and diplomatic translators).

British English does not match American English... trust me, it simply doesn't... there are many significant differences.

[quote=kalinka_vinnie]

Originally Posted by "E-learner":2hrb8fkf

I'm confused.
"Legal English" ... is designed to be understand by any English speaking attorney..."
I don't recognize this constraction (in bold). What is it? Shouldn't it be "understood"?

Indeed it should be. I am betting Professor Dobry is kicking himself right now [/quote:2hrb8fkf]



Yep, that was my mistake!!! I was doing three things at once as I wrote this, and I didn't notice. Sorry guys!

Originally Posted by scotcher

Firstly, you are talking total nonsense Dobry. When an American speaks grammaticaly correct American English, reasonably intelligent people from other parts of the English speaking world do not hear errors, no matter how much the vocabulary, syntax or grammar differs from their own 'standard'. They are speaking 'perfect' English.

Secondly, it is quite clear from the context what Ramil meant by 'perfect', and your nit-picking over that definition is adding absolutely nothing whatsoever to the discussion.

I disagree Scotcher.

First, YOU don't know what you are saying... there are several grammatical differences between British and American English. Not big differences. And yes, the understanding remains usually clear. But an Oxford professor would want an American exchange student to use Oxford grammar, and would penalize a student for using American grammar. I know this first-hand, because my ex-wife did research work at Oxford for a semester... her professor/tutor/Don often corrected her American grammar, and she was a Ph.D candidate in English literature, from the State Linguistics Institute in Minsk. Her American grammar is "perfect". She comes from a family of diplomatic "simultaneous translators" - Russian/English.

My own opinion is that there is no such thing as "perfect" English. You are speaking of relatives, not absolutes. When I think of "perfect", I think of absolutes.

And you didn't answer my question of who speaks "perfect" Russian.

My point is that all languages are relative, to location, culture, even village-by-village.

There are many Academics who would say the only "true" or "perfect" Spanish, for example, is the Spanish that is determined by the State Language Institute in Madrid... therefore, most Spaniards don't speak "perfect" Spanish.

I am NOT saying I agree with this opinion... but I think you are closing your mind to other opinions and thoughts. You first must define exactly what you mean by "error". Then, define exactly what you mean by "perfect".

If you are in a technical writing class, writing a research paper in Russian... and you write the paper using colloquial (street) Russian, instead of a University level of Russian... do you think your professor will say, "Good job, Scotcher... you wrote in "perfect" Russian! It's "perfect" for the street! Now... get out of my office and write it again!!!" ???

C'mon Scotcher. Get real.