Thread: Article or no article

I also never say "whom" and I'm unsure when to use it. You use it like "wem" in German, don't you? So basically "with whom/to whom" but "who did he kill" and not "whom did he kill"?

I've never heard anyone around this area say "whom" either. But we are rather uneducated down here.

Originally Posted by Jasper May

I never say 'whom', my family never says 'whom', no-one I know ever says 'whom'. Appears I live in rather anti-intellectual surroundings.

Btw, Lindzi, would you say 'WHOM did he give genital herpes?' in normal speech?

That's the funny thing - I automatically use it after a preposition, so if it was "he gave genital herpes to whom?" I would defnitely use it. But your construction, I'm not sure. Now that I'm thinking about it, I can't figure out whether I'd automatically say it or not. Hmm.

But yeah, I do use "whom" in normal, unaffected speech, albeit possibly not every time it is called for grammatically. As do quite a few people I know, now I that I think on it. My friend Jess definitely does. My dad does.

Both of whom are of German families, now that I think about it. Is there a parallel construction in German that would incline someone raised with German to properly use "who" and "whom"?

Who vs. Whom:

http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20021113.html

So according to that article, my construction would be the correct thing to say (as would 'whom did he kill'). But since it sounds unnatural and forced (who decides that?) it isn't used that often.

DUDE! So you use it as a direct object too? So it's basically a non-nominative "who" then! Hah! I learned something new about English today!

Originally Posted by Линдзи

Both of whom are of German families, now that I think about it. Is there a parallel construction in German that would incline someone raised with German to properly use "who" and "whom"?

Yeah, it's "wem" or "wen." At first I thought it was only "wem" but now that I know it's used for D.O. too, then also "wen." Ex:

Wer hat das Buch bekommen?
Who received the book?
Wem hast du das Buch gegeben?
Whom did you give the book to?(or maybe "To whom did you give the book"? My English sucks).
Wen hast du mit dem Buch geschlagen?
Whom did you hit with the book?

This is SO COOL! I'm using "whom"! YES!

But don't you think this sounds kind of weird? "Whom are you with?"

Originally Posted by Pravit

But don't you think this sounds kind of weird? "Whom are you with?"

It sounds wrong because prepositions then cannot go at the end of sentences. I would say "You are with whom?" See? Normal.

Esattamente. Now I'm not going to say that prepositions can't ever be used at the end of a sentence, clause, whatever, but 'whom', when used with a preposition, has to be preceded by that preposition. Or that's what I think.

Originally Posted by Pravit

Whom did you give the book to?(or maybe "To whom did you give the book"? My English sucks)

What about "Whom did you give the book?"

Damn, my English has become quite sucky! And they say you know your language better after learning other ones...balderdash! Or, as I like to say, "Codswobble!"

Originally Posted by Jasper May

Esattamente. Now I'm not going to say that prepositions can't ever be used at the end of a sentence, clause, whatever, but 'whom', when used with a preposition, has to be preceded by that preposition. Or that's what I think.

Originally Posted by Pravit

Whom did you give the book to?(or maybe "To whom did you give the book"? My English sucks)

What about "Whom did you give the book?"

Indeed. I have no major quibble with "Who did you give the book?" or even "Who did you give the book to?" in conversation, although I do think the correct variant with "whom" is more pleasing to the ear. But if you are going to use whom, it must accompany its preposition.

I would venture that "To whom did you give the book" is not exactly incorrect, but Jasper's "whom did you give the book" is a vastly preferable option; "You gave the book to whom?" would also be nice, in certain contexts.

And I do think that "whom" is an absolute necessity in an sort of formal writing. There are any number of things that I will say in casual conversation or when, for example, posting on a message board, that I would never put in a document meant for publication or formal interaction. Improper use of who/whom is one of those things. It just looks sloppy. And like it or not, your writing DOES give an impression about you.

Originally Posted by Pravit

Damn, my English has become quite sucky! And they say you know your language better after learning other ones...balderdash! Or, as I like to say, "Codswobble!"

Pravit, your English is fine. Jeeeeeez.

And your punctuation is divine. I do appreciate some good punctuation, and you, my good sir, have it in spades.

Oh, I'm flattered! But be a love, dear cousin, and explain to me if the comma must really ALWAYS go inside the quotation marks! I would pull out some old English essays if I could, but I believe I schmeissed them all weg in a bit of jubilee that I finished school. Perhaps when you're listing things that need to go in quotation marks, or the sentence dictates a comma when you're quoting something?

Oo, I do love the word "codswobble", I do. (Do I sound like a Northern granny like this?)

Originally Posted by Oddo

surely you must have nothing useful to do in life.

Splendid. Finally we agree on something.

Originally Posted by Pravit

But don't you think this sounds kind of weird? "Whom are you with?"

Depends on whom you ask about it.

Originally Posted by Линдзи

I would daresay you are posting about this far too much to accuse someone ELSE of caring too much about grammar.

@ Lindzi
I don't deny you have a point. but I don't care about grammar. If it doesn't seem natural, there's no point losing sleep over it.

@ the others
Regarding "whom", don't worry when to use it, if you're not sure just use "who", it's not a big deal. If you're writing an English essay try to use "whom" though.

What of this can be considered proper or improper:

Whom are you talking with?
Who are you talking with?
Whom are you talking to?
Who are you talking to?

Originally Posted by Tu-160

What of this can be considered proper or improper:

Whom are you talking with?
Who are you talking with?
Whom are you talking to?
Who are you talking to?

"Who are you talking with" and "Who are you talking to" are both conversational although technically unsound. Correct variants would be "To whom are you talking?" "You are talking to whom?" "With whom are you talking?" and "You're talking with whom?" The preposition and the "whom" must go together.

Originally Posted by Oddo

@ the others
Regarding "whom", don't worry when to use it, if you're not sure just use "who", it's not a big deal. If you're writing an English essay try to use "whom" though.

Yeah, and, like, if you can't remember how to properly use commas, just forget 'em. For real, just do whatever you feel like doing. And don't bother to spell anything correctly, either. And by all means, mix up the word "its" and "it's." Who can be expected to keep all that straight? It's not a big deal. Oddo doesn't care, so no employer or professor ever will.

Originally Posted by Линдзи

Originally Posted by Oddo

@ the others
Regarding "whom", don't worry when to use it, if you're not sure just use "who", it's not a big deal. If you're writing an English essay try to use "whom" though.

Yeah, and, like, if you can't remember how to properly use commas, just forget 'em. For real, just do whatever you feel like doing. And don't bother to spell anything correctly, either. And by all means, mix up the word "its" and "it's." Who can be expected to keep all that straight? It's not a big deal. Oddo doesn't care, so no employer or professor ever will.

Oh, pardon me:

...when to use it; if you're...

Correct spelling and "it's" and "its" serve a useful purpose. Commas aren't quite as important; if you use them too much (i.e. when not necessary) then it doesn't make it hard to understand, whereas too few commas make a sentence unreadable.

If you could be bothered to read my post, you might notice that I said
"If you're writing an English essay try to use "whom" though."

In case any non-natives are wondering, I mean that as an example, not the only time when it's worth using "whom".

This just in, guys: commas aren't that important.

What is important about commas is not, in fact, PROPERLY using them, but how much you use them. Use them moderately. If you think you have too many in a sentence, take a few out. If you've got a sentence with none in, stick a few in. It's all about the numbers.

Oddo, would you care to tell us how many commas per word (CPW) are approprate in a text? I would hate to overuse or underuse the poor comma. Here all along I've been putting them where they were called for by the rules of punctuation, but I'll be sure to stop that immediately.