Thread: Pro or Anti Stalin

@N: And I respect everything in Russia but Stalin. Don't get me wrong.
I did understand what you were talking about. I'm not dumb and I do know something about the subject. Насчёт 'our' knowledge being utterly one-sided, I'd say the majority of Russians' is as well.

So maybe it's not proven that he himself, in person, killed anyone. As someone in this thread said, he did give some of the direct orders (40,000+ was it?). Why so few? You try and sign millions of deathwarrants. That doesn't mean he didn't have anything to do with it or even had no knowledge of it.

I did understand what Bad Manners was saying. It still is a kind of medieval attitude, isn't it? "Ooo, they know something we don't, they must be witches/devils/enemies of the state." Is it proven that they ever did anything illegal/wrong? Or are they just bastards because they criticize Russia? Which of course is an American attitude.

And the quote is most definitely associated with Stalin. Maybe not an authoritative source, but look: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quote ... 01380.html
Or did Chrushchev invent this quote and attribute it to Stalin?

Originally Posted by Gollandski Yozh

@Scorpio

Denying the famine? The USSR was producing food for export to pay for the industrialization. The famine should never, ever have happened.

Are you unable to read? He said it clearly, famines had been regular in Russia before Stalin and before Lenin. Tolstoy said "голод на Руси не когда хлеб не родится, а когда не родится лебеда". Do you even know what "лебеда" is?

Likewise, Russia had been exporting food and having famines before 1917. The communists did not cause it. But it is remarkable that they actually stopped it. That famine in the Ukraine was the last to happen.

Originally Posted by Jasper May

So maybe it's not proven that he himself, in person, killed anyone. As someone in this thread said, he did give some of the direct orders (40,000+ was it?).

It was not the "direct orders". That's a good example of misinterpretation.

Originally Posted by Jasper May

I did understand what Bad Manners was saying. It still is a kind of medieval attitude, isn't it? "Ooo, they know something we don't, they must be witches/devils/enemies of the state."

No, actually he said that they know nothing.

Originally Posted by Jasper May

And the quote is most definitely associated with Stalin. Maybe not an authoritative source, but look: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quote ... 01380.html

Yes you are right, it's not an authoritative source

Originally Posted by Gollandski Yozh

The total number of victims of political repression in USSR in period from 1921 to 1953 (e.g. so-called Stalin's era) is approximately 4 mln. This includes: 800 000 condemned to death, and 600 000 died in prison camps for various reasons.

That is incorrect. Stalin did not have anything even remotely resembling "dictatorship" since 1921. He was the secretary general since 1921, but originally it was a technical position. There were lots of "старые большевики" who were very influential. Stalin gained full power in 1937, when those were no more. But it is well known that the "purges" stopped in 1937 precisely after the old-timers had been dealt with. Thus it is not very clear who was the driving force behind the purges. I know that you're going to say "Stalin, who else, anybody knows that" but that's not going to convince me.

Many of those "repressed" were then actually returned shortly after 1937, apparently as soon as it was discovered that they were still returnable. As sad as it sounds in this particular case, bureaucracy exists everywhere, so I can image it took some time. The return of the repressed clearly indicates a shift in the policy, and I attribute that shift to Stalin's coming to full power, when he could stop the madness. But I admit that I'm speculating here.

Originally Posted by Gollandski Yozh

We might discuss figures here, but that'll be just throwing millions back and forth, but 1,4 mln seems like a "mass" of people to me...

Yes, let's discuss the numbers. When some hot shots say that Stalin killed ten, twenty or more millions, then he was just as bad as Hitler. Some wise guys even say that he was worse than Hitler because he killed more people in Russia than Hitler did. But as it turns out that he "killed" no more than 1.4 million, then he's definitely a far cry from being worse than Hitler. I said "no more" because we cannot attribute 1.4 million to Stalin, as I remarked above.

Originally Posted by N

In Russia we differ so-called творческая интеллигенция (artist, actors, writers etc) and техническая интеллигенция (engineers, hard scientists etc). Both categories formally have higher education but usually when we say abt intelligentsia with sneering attitude we mean the first one. As a rule техническая интеллингенция thinks that higher education of творческой интеллигенции actually costs nothing. However I know many технарей who are not better

That's why I said "good for nothing" was a necessary condition. The educated guys who have taken the time to study the Russian history separately from вранья Никиты Кукурузника (AKA the "democratic" version) have a lot more balanced position. At the very least they start to realize how many lies and fabrications are there. The rest may or may not follow, but still. Unfortunately, that does require a deliberate attempt, while the "default" version is "Stalin is a bloody murderer, the USSR is an evil empire". That should be the biggest shame for the Russians.

Bad Manners didn't say the intelligentsia knew nothing, in the posts I read.
Anyway, @Gollandski Yozh etc., it's a bit like convincing holocaust revisionists. I'm open to everything, but it needs a lot more proof than what those/these people come up with to convince me.

If someone on this forum can direct me to a convincing, well-researched, documented and critical essay proving that Stalin wasn't a tyrant, complete with reactions from other authorities on the subject (western and Russian), I'd be more than happy to read it. Even if it's Russian. Until then I'm going to leave this thread. Don't want to ruin our work-relations here, do we?

Jasper May, for a "clown" you're quite intelligent. I must agree with you. If bad manners even doubts the lowest number available (1,4 million), I'd say we are fighting a useless fight here.

Fine, BM, Stalin wasn't a killer. You believe that. I believe what I know are the facts. Let's just all believe our own "propaganda". You'll be happy to live in a fairy tale world where Uncle Joe is like Ded Moroz and we'll live in reality with Stalin trying his best to make Hitler look like a naughty schoolboy.

Originally Posted by Gollandski Yozh

Jasper May, for a "clown" you're quite intelligent. I must agree with you.

For the record, I meant another person when I said clown. I thought the context [or rather picture] was clear. I apologize if I was not clear enough on that. I never meant to insult Jasper. In fact, I'm delighted by his genuine interest for the Russian language, culture and history. Yet I find it pointless to discuss what we're discussing here with him. That requires certain perspective that he simply cannot have.

Fine, BM, Stalin wasn't a killer. You believe that. I believe what I know are the facts. Let's just all believe our own "propaganda".

Sigh. You confirm my worst worries. That is a matter of faith for you. You don't provide arguments, and you ignore the arguments of the others. Isn't it troubling you that the people whom you seem to love may have a history completely different than that ingrained into you?

Originally Posted by bad manners

Sigh. You confirm my worst worries. That is a matter of faith for you. You don't provide arguments, and you ignore the arguments of the others. Isn't it troubling you that the people whom you seem to love may have a history completely different than that ingrained into you?

No arguments? I gave you Scorpio's source! 1,4 million deaths! What more do you want? Make Stalin a saint? If you think he wasn't responsible for any deaths, it's YOU who are going against the majority of the thinking world. Please, prove this. I can point at whole libraries written about Stalin being an evil SOB. You call this "propaganda". How do expect me to convince you, then?

[quote=Gollandski Yozh]

Originally Posted by "bad manners":3gdku7h9

Sigh. You confirm my worst worries. That is a matter of faith for you. You don't provide arguments, and you ignore the arguments of the others. Isn't it troubling you that the people whom you seem to love may have a history completely different than that ingrained into you?

No arguments? I gave you Scorpio's source! 1,4 million deaths! What more do you want? Make Stalin a saint? If you think he wasn't responsible for any deaths, it's YOU who are going against the majority of the thinking world. Please, prove this. I can point at whole libraries written about Stalin being an evil SOB. You call this "propaganda". How do expect me to convince you, then?[/quote:3gdku7h9]

Oh. So you do agree with 1.4 million now. Then you should take back your recent comparison of Stalin with Hitler.

I say that he surely was responsible. I reject the number of 1.4 million. Because I know how the Russian bureaucracies work. If there is a particular subject they can report on, they will. If that subject is as important as "the number of anti-soviet elements, trotskyist and kulaks executed or imprisoned" they will try their best to show figures that they think should please their superiors, that is, large figures. Especially when the employees are the старые чекисты, hardened by their old deeds. The biggest sin Stalin ever committed was to give them the very ability to report on that subject. Could he have done otherwise? Historically, I think he did the right thing taking the "extreme communists" away from power. I doubt they would give in voluntarily. So the NKVD had to be plugged in. They surely did their best and energetically so to fulfill the expectations of their superiors (to the extent they understood it). Do you honestly believe that out of ~700 thousand executed in 1937-1938 every single one was reported to Stalin? I'm sure he knew about the most prominent persons, and the responsibility for their fate lies with him. On the other hand, it is precisely the same persons who deserved it most. I'm sure he knew the grand total as well, could he stop it? Would he want to? Do you think he would authorize any execution if he knew that the person was innocent? How could he verify that in the first place? Did he try to do anything to verify that?

I do not have answers to these questions. I do not think anybody does, either. But I think it is unfair to answer them by "yes he was guilty". I suggest that you read "Вадим Кожинов Россия. Век XX-й (1901-1939)." if you genuinely want to see how these questions _might_ be answered.

Originally Posted by bad manners

Oh. So you do agree with 1.4 million now. Then you should take back your recent comparison of Stalin with Hitler.

No (misreading is very convenient sometimes), I said earlier that 1,4 million deaths is "mass" murder in my book. I don't care if he killed 20 million (closer to my truth, at least), 5 million, 1,4 million or "only" 200,000, he's still a mass murderer to me.

I say Stalin was a mass murderer. Period. There are also people denying the Holocaust and they have all the "proof" they need, i.e. only what they want to see.

Stalin knew nothing of all this? That's a joke. He executed Ezhov, claiming he had been doing things behind Stalin's back. After this came Beria, who was an even bigger butcher. Sure, and Stalin knew nothing about all this. Having the power to stop the killings without using it makes you 100% responsible, even if he didn't sign every death sentence himself. Like Ezhov, Beria could only go as far as Stalin let him. In the end, it was Stalin who made the madness stop, but he was also the one who started it.

Originally Posted by bad manners

That I can agree with. When I wrote "value highly" I did not mean they all say "дорогой товарищ Сталин, спасибо за наше счастливое детство" all the time. But those who are able to think, excluding those интеллигенция types who can but hate everything around them, understand perfectly well that without comrade Stalin they would not have had any childhood at all. None, zero, zilch, nada. Those few who would have survived would have lived in enternal slavery, able only to count up to 500 and sign, and perhaps read their master's orders, Hitler hismself was not quite sure about the latter.

It's very hard to say what would happen. Maybe (and even possibly) without Stalin the world would be so different that it would be incorrect to say about all that 'eternal slavery' and wars at all. Even if so, it's too hard to predict what would other parties (forces) do. I prefer not to speculate about it.

And secondly. I don't like your conception of intelligentsia. Actually, any of them. As any generalisation, it loses the point too easily. Western world lives without such "прослойка", even though it does have such kind of people (e.g. Greens in Australia ). I realise Russia has some special environment for these people (and there is no one to blame for it), but still the emphasis on them is stupid. (I even think it's partly because of the traditional Russian approach to blame some definite group in everything - a current government, intelegentsia, Jews... ). But the worst thing is that many individuals transfer such attitude to all educated people.

Originally Posted by N

Originally Posted by Jasper May

So maybe it's not proven that he himself, in person, killed anyone. As someone in this thread said, he did give some of the direct orders (40,000+ was it?).

It was not the "direct orders". That's a good example of misinterpretation.

N, it's absolutely not important. It's an old сказака о хорошем царе и плохих боярах. Anyway, as well as a commander has full responsibility for his unit, as a director is responsible for his works and people, Stalin (and any state governor, especially a dictator) was directly responsible for everything his government did.

Bad Manners is using any available evidence that supports his world view to further his tenuous argument, whilst simultaneously disregarding the mountains of evidence that contradict those views, labeling anyone who challenges his opinions as 1) incapable of understanding the issue, or 2) stupid, or 3) brain-washed, or 4) biased, while at the same time totally failing to aknowledge that exactly the same charges could just as easily be levelled at him in light of the fact that he has still offered absolutely no evidence whatsoever to back up his, frankly appauling, beliefs.

And when all else fails, he starts calling people names.

Is there anywhere this thread can go from here?

Clown Out

[quote=Gollandski Yozh]

Originally Posted by "bad manners":2g7zgv3h

Oh. So you do agree with 1.4 million now. Then you should take back your recent comparison of Stalin with Hitler.

No (misreading is very convenient sometimes)[/quote:2g7zgv3h]

Sigh again. Then I'll repeat that it's a matter of trust for you. You trust what you want to trust.

Stalin knew nothing of all this? That's a joke.

Where did I say that? I said quite plainly that I'm sure he knew "the grand total". Whether he really could stop it is an entirely different matter.

After this came Beria, who was an even bigger butcher.

That has to be proved yet. Whatever Никита Сергеевич said is not necessarily true. They executed Beria for a ridiculous charge (working for a number of foreign intelligence services). The trial was not held openly, and the materials look very much like fake.

Having the power to stop the killings without using it makes you 100% responsible, even if he didn't sign every death sentence himself.

You need to prove that he had the power first. You argue like a kid, one single man in charge of everything. I can tell that you're fresh from a university and never ever worked even in a medium size organization (long enough). Have you ever considered why Nicholas the Second was overthrown? Because he was barely aware of the "настроениях в низах", food deficit, and so on. When it finally occurred to him that he could slacken the tension by feeding the populace, it was already too late. Are you going to say that he was not as powerful as Stalin? Now that would really be a joke, a самодержец less powerful than somebody who at least in principle was subordinate to the Party and the Politburo in particular, not to mention that he was not even a member of the government. Yet you сотоварищи ignore this analogy. История учит тому, что она ничему не учит.

And I take it you're going to ignore the reference I gave, right? Credo quia absurdum.

Originally Posted by Zeus

Originally Posted by bad manners

That I can agree with. When I wrote "value highly" I did not mean they all say "дорогой товарищ Сталин, спасибо за наше счастливое детство" all the time. But those who are able to think, excluding those интеллигенция types who can but hate everything around them, understand perfectly well that without comrade Stalin they would not have had any childhood at all. None, zero, zilch, nada. Those few who would have survived would have lived in enternal slavery, able only to count up to 500 and sign, and perhaps read their master's orders, Hitler hismself was not quite sure about the latter.

It's very hard to say what would happen. Maybe (and even possibly) without Stalin the world would be so different that it would be incorrect to say about all that 'eternal slavery' and wars at all. Even if so, it's too hard to predict what would other parties (forces) do. I prefer not to speculate about it.

The world would have been different right enough. I've mentioned the most likely picture. Waging a war against Russia and exterminating the Slavs and the other untermenschen were an ideefixe for Hitler, it had been his leitmotiv since well before Stalin became a "dictator". It was there in Mein Kampf, and it was there in his talks with Bormann et al, and most importantly it was done in the occupied territories. There is nothing to speculate about.

And secondly. I don't like your conception of intelligentsia.

Then ignore it. It is not even secondary to my argument, it is tertiary. Historically the intelligentsia has played a horrible role in the history of Russia, it brought the Bolsheviks in 1917 and it brought the humiliation in 1985-1992 and ever since. There might be nice people there, they are everywhere, but on the grand scale it looks disgusting.

But the worst thing is that many individuals transfer such attitude to all educated people.

And because you're educated you don't like it, eh? Let's not get personal about it. By the Russian standards I'm an интеллигент myself. I'm sure that when the intelligentsia _has_ done something that makes the lives of _all_ the people in Russia more enjoyable, it will receive full credit. Right now I can think of only one such deed, the freedom of speech, but as the Russian government mostly ignores whatever is said about it...

Originally Posted by Gollandski Yozh

@Scorpio

Denying the famine? The USSR was producing food for export to pay for the industrialization. The famine should never, ever have happened.

I'm denying the famine?!
Yozh, did you actually read what I wrote?

Originally Posted by Gollandski Yozh

"In order to make the USSR a bastion of socialism, Stalin recognized that it was necessary to build industry. To do this in a backward country like the Soviet Union it was necessary to import machinery. But to obtain this machinery it was necessary to obtain foreign exchange. Characteristically, the export of agricultural products had earned a significant proportion of this exchange. Therefore, to continue industrialization at an accelerated pace, Stalin apparently thought it vital to continue the export of food - no matter what the conditions in the countryside._147_

It is, therefore, of interest to turn to an examination of Soviet export and import figures for the calendar years 1932 and 1933. Unfortunately, the data are not available on a crop year basis - for this would more nearly coincide with the famine periods. But if it is considered that most of the food exported from the 1932 crop helped lead to the famine period during the first two-thirds of 1933, the figures become more meaningful (the same, of course, would be true for the 1933-34 periods).

According to official Soviet statistics, exports of food accounted for 24.3 percent and 20 percent of the value of all Soviet exports in 1932 and 1933, respectively. Grain was the largest food item, representing 9 percent and 8.1 percent of total exports._148_ Imports of food, on the other hand, accounted for 10 percent and 8.2 percent of the value of all imports in 1932 and 1933. Tea, which has no nutritive value, was one of the largest single items, representing 1 percent and 1.7 percent of total imports._149_

On balance, there was a net export of foods in the two years. In 1932, food exports were worth twice as much as imports; in 1933, they were worth three and a half times as much. The net value of these exports was 242.5 million rubles in 1932, and 246.2 million rubles in 1933 (or about $60.6 million in 1932 and $61.5 million in 1933)._150_

In terms of weight, net grain exports totalled 1.70 million tons in 1932, and 1.84 million tons in 1933._151_ In turn, gross grain exports represented about 4.9 percent and 4.2 percent of production in 1932 and 1933._152_"

http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1983/158321.shtml#t149

Yes, there was essential amount of grain export during Stalin's time -- and one of most important reasons for it was a dire need for building a powerful industry. Because without it the powerful agriculture is not possible, too.
Isn't is obvious, that agricultural sector of economy needs appropriate equipment -- tractors, seeder, combine harvesters, etc? That's one of important reasons, why forced industrialization of the country was needed. Are you still blaming Stalin for it?

BM, comparing Nicholas I, a weak willed man, with Stalin, who had a strong will ever since he was Koba, is ridiculous.

Hitler never ever signed a document approving the deportation of Jews and their gassing. Still, nobody doubts he knew about this. Trains had to be used, rail capacity, people, etc. It was done in his name, following his ideas.

Now, about Stalin. Do you really think that if Stalin hadn't known about all this, nobody would have told him: "Tovarish Stalin, I should let you know what is going on in the country. The security service is killing people without your permission and thus weakening the nation." You find such people everywhere; taking matters to the superiors of their superiors just to benefit from it themselves. This never happened. Why? Because it was all ordered and/or condoned by Stalin.

You claim he didn't have the power to stop it. That's just a joke. He did have the power to stop Hitler, but not some sadists of the NKVD?

And please, you said you didn't want to call Jasper a clown, now you call me a kid. Is it really that hard to defend your Glorious Leader without name calling? Just pathetic.

@Scorpio

In other words, people starved for their own benefit?

"Yes, poor Ukrainians, now you all are dying of hunger, because we are exporting food, but don't worry, in two years you will all have brand new tractors! Aren't you happy? And you thank it all to our Glorious Leader, tovarish Stalin!"

Originally Posted by Gollandski Yozh

@Scorpio

In other words, people starved for their own benefit?

"Yes, poor Ukrainians, now you all are dying of hunger, because we are exporting food, but don't worry, in two years you will all have brand new tractors! Aren't you happy? And you thank it all to our Glorious Leader, tovarish Stalin!"

Yozh, are you sarcastic? Why?
Yes, they were starving for their own (and future generations) benefit. Please, give me an example of any famine in Ukraine, happened between 1945 and 1991. You can't? Aren't their absence somewhat beneficial?

There's the difference between the Stalin's times and present days: I have no idea, for whose benefits people in Ukraine (and in Russia, and other former Soviet republics...) are starving now. Corrupt local authorities? Corrupt western-beloved nation-wide politicians? Corrupt world economy "elite"?
But not for their own benefit, I'm 100% sure.