Quote Originally Posted by mike
I do not know what you are basing his being the "main perpetrator" on,
Let's see, he was the commander of the Red Army and for some time Lenin's number 2 man in the Communist regime. Stalin even admitted this on several occasions.

or what exactly constitutes a Communist atrocity.
Ever heard of the Red Terror?

No idea what this means. Clear it up, please.
It means that Trotsky's actions and policies served as an example to Stalin. As historian Richard Pipes stated in his "Concise History of the Russian Revolution":
He[Trotsky] suffered the same fate that was meted out, with his wholehearted consent, to opponents of Lenin's dictatorship: the Kadets, the Socialists-Revolutionaries, the Mensheviks; ex-tsarist officers who refused to fight for the Red army; the Workers opposition; the Kronstadt sailors; the Tambov peasents; the priesthood. He awokw to the dangers of totalitarianism only when it threatened him personally; his sudden conversion to party democracy was a means of self-defense, not a championship of principle.
--pg.380

(since the implements used by the peasants in Russia at the turn of the century were centuries behind the West in effectiveness and Russia had barely even heard of concepts like crop-rotation that were taken for granted by Western farms).
Oh really?


http://autarchic.tripod.com/files/alliance.html

RUSSIAN INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT UNDER THE TSAR
An examination of our trade history with the Communists gives strong evidence that the Solzhenitsyn claim is not in the least exaggerated. Returning to the Bolshevik revolution, the reader might be surprised to find that the Russians under the Tsar were far more advanced, prior to 1917, than we had thought. "Airplanes and automobiles of indigenous Russian design were produced in quantity before the Bolshevik revolution. Although industrialization was restricted to a few population centers, it utilized modern, efficient plants operating on scales comparable to those elsewhere in the world. Further, there were obvious signs of indigenous Russian technology in chemicals, aircraft, automobiles, turbines, and railroad equipment. "Not only did such technology exist, but it was left almost totally undisturbed by the Bolshevik revolution of 1917. What then caused the economic calamity which followed 1921? One thing is certain. It was not brought about by absence of operable productive facilities." (Antony C. Sutton, Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development, 1917-1930. Hoover Institution on War, Revolution and Peace, Stanford University, p. 344).



Yes, and "socialism in one country"--especially Russia--basically flies smack in the face of everything Communists had ever tried to obtain in the 70 years prior to Stalin's accession.
Do you think I really care about that? Stalin broke with Communist tradition, GOOD!

Please show me something by any of the major Communist thinkers of the 19th century about: 1) inciting a revolution in a backwards, primitive country; and then 2) deciding it is smarter to murder an enormous number of people trying to bring the nation's agriculture and industry on par with Europe or North America to make it to the next stage of economic growth.
And what is this supposed to prove? What Stalin was bad because he wasnt a good Communist?

Which exactly was more practical for Russia to do: start all sorts of wars in vain attempts to spread Communism to other countries(Trotsky wanted a repeat of Lenin's invasion of Poland); or to consolidate and build up Russia's position at home? Please answer this.

I am not sure I understand how you can claim to be a "staunch anti-communist" and "staunch anti-Stalinist" and then decide Stalin's forced collectivization was the "more practical course" to take.
Obviously you failed to read what I wrote and in what context I was speaking. I said that when compared to what Trotsky was proposing, Stalin's plans were more practical. Nice try at spinning what I wrote.

Of course, your support for Tsar Nicholas obviously illustrates your ability to ignore mass murder for the sake of an idea, so I guess it is not so far a stretch to imagine why you would defend Stalin as well.
LOL! Nothing the Tsar did ever came close to what Stalin did. Nice try.

But since you brought up the topic of comparing Trotsky to Czar Nicholas:
But Lenin's and Trotsky's sole concern was holding onto power, whereas Nicholas cared for Russia. When the general and Duma politicians persuaded him that he had to go to save the army and avert a humiliating capitulation, he acquiesced. Had staying in power been his supreme objective, he could easily have concluded peace with Germany and turned the army loose against the mutineers. The record leaves no doubt that the myth of the Tsar being forced from the throne by the rebellious workers and peasants is just that. The Tsar yielded not to a rebellious populace but to generals and politicians, and he did so from a sense of patriotic duty.
--Richard Pipes Russia Under the Bolshevik Regime pg. 497
I wonder if either Lenin or Trotsky would have done the same, oh wait THEY DIDN'T!

Because he knew how effective artificial BS like "cultural heritage" and nationalism are at controlling stupid people and making them obedient.
LOL! There's nothing BS or even artificial about a nation's cultural heritage and its sense of national identity. They were fervently based in history and tradition. But I guess somebody like you wouldnt understand that.

It always amazes me how many Russians recall cheerfully to me the story of how Prince Vlad sent out people to find the most impressive and manipulative religion to unify Russia with. As if being subject to such an indifferent method of choosing a national religion is something to be proud of.
LOL! You clearly know nothing about Russian history, for Vladimir was intriqued by the Orthodox faith ever since his grandmother Olga introduced him to it.

Had the Muslims been more effective at rounding their natives up than the Byzantines I suppose history would be dramatically altered.
Can you actually prove this or are you pulling nonsense out of thin air?

And it would be a crime for Russian women to cover themselves up, so let us be glad the opiate of choice was Byzantine Orthodoxy.
HAHAHAHA Oh This is getting more pathetic the more I read it. Yes how dare those evil Russkies "oppress" their women by making them cover themselves. OH THE HUMANITY! That was just beautiful Gloria Steinem.

You make it sound like he focused only on Russia's cultural tradition.
Nice straw man. I was refering to his views CONCERNING RUSSIA! After all this is a forum about RUSSIAN HISTORY, not Communist ideology in general.

Since the days of Marx himself (see his writings on the so-called "Jewish question," where he says the only way Jews will be treated as equals is if they (and Christians) abandon their cultural separations and create one of common respect) many (if not all the major parties and movements of) Communists have wanted to get rid of anything which creates nationalist feelings and thus inequality and oppression of minority groups.
Yes yes Im fully aware of Marxist doctrines.


The Tsarist treatment of Jews and Gypsies is a good example of the Russian "heritage"
Thank you for exposing more of your complete lack of knowledge on Russia's cultural history. Of course you only pick and choose what you want to know about apparently. Of course since so many Jews were among the Bolsheviks and other terrorist organization; it's little wonder as to why they were so hated.

Oh well as stated above, funny how the Jews must determine everything for everybody. Hell here in America they're trying to tell us we cant see a simple movie about the sacrifice of our lord Christ. Oy Vey!

that they sought to eliminate with "proletarian culture" and by removing the Orthodox Church's tight grip on the government's testicles
You clearly lack any knowledge of Russian history. For it was the state that controlled the church. It was that way ever since Peter the Great secularized the Russian state and placed the church under his control.

(which it is slowly working its way back around, unfortunately).
Yes how dare the Russians reclaim the heritage was ruthlessly and violently destroyed. Here's a short list of the victims of Communism
http://www.orthodox.net/russiannm/index.html

I like your words though. "Utter contempt," and "permenately [sic] wiped from the face of the earth." Very vivid and colorful. Hyperbolic and misleading. But vivid and colorful.
Actually it's the utter trash you posted here thats misleading.