Thread: Changing my name

Originally Posted by Ramil

Again, it's all -ский in Russian. The Russians use cyrillic letters, remember. The rules of transliteration still require to use -sky.

AFAIK, contemporary official letter-by-letter cyr-lat transliteration (which is particularly used to produce Russian foreign passports) requires -skij/-skaja (mus/fem).

-sky/-ska became a kind of international standard because it is used in Polish (which is Slavic language with the like surnames and use a latin-based alphabet).

Originally Posted by it-ogo

-sky/-ska became a kind of international standard because it is used in Polish (which is Slavic language with the like surnames and use a latin-based alphabet).

No. In Polish the ending of such surnames is ski. (And -sky would be read as "скы": say, Ковалевскы, not Ковалевски; but it's incorrect).

Originally Posted by Оля

No. In Polish the ending of such surnames is ski. (And -sky would be read as "скы": say, Ковалевскы, not Ковалевски; but it's incorrect).

Oops! Indeed... So, where this strange "-sky" came from?

[quote=it-ogo]

Originally Posted by "Оля":73rs3saa

No. In Polish the ending of such surnames is ski. (And -sky would be read as "скы": say, Ковалевскы, not Ковалевски; but it's incorrect).

Oops! Indeed... So, where this strange "-sky" came from?[/quote:73rs3saa]
I'm sure the origin is obscure, but my guess is that it is simply an anglicized transliteration; an 'ee' sound in the suffix of a word is nearly always expressed with 'y'.

guys- i have been doing my research, and it turns out that the 3 names First Patrynomic Last is not a genuine russian name- that a genuine russian pre soviet name consists of the first name and the patrinomic only- such as Daniel Aleksandrovich of Moscow, last names such as Oslov, Koslov, Pavlov, etc. were all invented by communist regime- Koslov meaning goat, Zhukov meaning insect etc. does anyone know anything about this?

Originally Posted by Tamerlane

guys- i have been doing my research, and it turns out that the 3 names First Patrynomic Last is not a genuine russian name- that a genuine russian pre soviet name consists of the first name and the patrinomic only- such as Daniel Aleksandrovich of Moscow, last names such as Oslov, Koslov, Pavlov, etc. were all invented by communist regime- Koslov meaning goat, Zhukov meaning insect etc. does anyone know anything about this?

above^

Originally Posted by Tamerlane

guys- i have been doing my research, and it turns out that the 3 names First Patrynomic Last is not a genuine russian name- that a genuine russian pre soviet name consists of the first name and the patrinomic only- such as Daniel Aleksandrovich of Moscow, last names such as Oslov, Koslov, Pavlov, etc. were all invented by communist regime- Koslov meaning goat, Zhukov meaning insect etc. does anyone know anything about this?

In fact, originally "Aleksandrovich" and "Aleksandrov" means the same (the father's name is Aleksandr) but the former way is just more respectable. "Aleksandrov" is a genitive case of "Aleksandr" i.e. "Aleksandrov"=("[son] of Aleksandr"). "-ovich" was usually a reference to noble one while "-ov" - to a peasant. And "Kozlov" usually meant that father's (or family leader's) alias was "Kozel" = Goat. It was rather definition then sign of respect and therefore was more often used as a family name. So patrynomics often was the origin of family name. Now a family name and individual patrynomic name are used both. All individual patrynomic names are in respectable form now while family names usually keep a stamp of history. All of this was standartized before communists.

PS In fact, family name of Daniil Aleksandrovich of Moscow was Rurikovich. Rurikoviches were the first dinasty of Rus (not exactly "royal" dinasty but something like). The founder of this family was viking Rurik. But at that time the system of names was not standartized.

well the point being that- could a name that would traditionally be a patrinomic, be in fact a surname? could one feasibly have a name such as Dmitry Pavlovich, and thats it, no middle name? an example of this would be Ivan the terrible- his full name was just Ivan Vasilyevich. the concept of a last name did not exist in russian history until later years, even in Alexander Nevksy- nevksy means nothing but "from near the river" so as to differentiate him from another Alexander Yaroslavich. from what i have learned, when the communist regime took over- russians were given arbitrary, even derogotary peasant surnames because the communist revolution was essentialy a revolution for peasant land reform. "oviches" as surnames were removed because it represented nobility.

Originally Posted by Tamerlane

well the point being that- could a name that would traditionally be a patrinomic, be in fact a surname? could one feasibly have a name such as Dmitry Pavlovich, and thats it, no middle name?

Now surnames with "-vich" are widespread in Belorussia and less in Poland. In Russia they are few but they are. Yet usually surname with "-vich" does not sounds like Patrynomic name (PN). Even if it is used as surname (rare) sometimes the stress is changed. For example, PavlOvich (surname) inatead of PAvlovich (PN).

an example of this would be Ivan the terrible- his full name was just Ivan Vasilyevich.
Ivan IV the Terrible was also Rurikovich. Traditionally when referred to the monarch, his surname is not used, AFAIK it is true for the whole Europe.

the concept of a last name did not exist in russian history until later years,

I say "family name" (or surname), not "last name", because "last" referred to some unnecessary standards and now in Russian it is "фамилия"="familia". But it was not standartized (and was not so obvious) until the implementation of effective bureaucracy. Not sure when it was though. You need professional historian consultation.

even in Alexander Nevksy- nevksy means nothing but "from near the river" so as to differentiate him from another Alexander Yaroslavich.

Both of them were Rurikoviches. It was a very big dinasty.

from what i have learned, when the communist regime took over- russians were given arbitrary, even derogotary peasant surnames because the communist revolution was essentialy a revolution for peasant land reform.

Well, the first total population census in Russian Empire was in 1897, before communists. AFAIK surnames at that time were obvious. (Then there were other censi in USSR.) As I know most Russians at 1897 already had fixed surnames but many national minorities (mainly eastern) at that time mainly did not. I can imagine the procedure was like below:
- Hey, you, come here!
- Err...
- What is your name?
- XXX
- What is your family name?
- Uh...
- OK, what is the name of your father?
- ZZZ.
- OK, now you are XXX ZZZovich ZZZov. Got it? Next!..

"oviches" as surnames were removed because it represented nobility.

Well is Russian surnames there was not effective sign of nobility (like "de" in French or "von" in German) so there was nothing to remove. As I did say "-vich" surnames were enough rare in all times. The second Russian dinasty were Romanovs not Romanoviches. And situation with PNs did not changed with communists. Both in that times and now we obviously have in our documents both PN and SN. And in usual speach we use PN when we want to emphasize respect.

well my question is this- would it be possible for a last name to end in ovich?

such as- Ivan (no patrinomic) Vasilyevich

Yeah, but Russian speakers would think you are a jew. ))) A surname that ends with -ovich is very common among the Jews.

Originally Posted by Tamerlane

well my question is this- would it be possible for a last name to end in ovich?

It is possible but rare (in Russian). It is more often in Polish and very often in Belorussian.

Originally Posted by Tamerlane

such as- Ivan (no patrinomic) Vasilyevich

If you mean zar Ivan IV the Terrible then Vasilyevich is his patrinomic. His "last name" is different.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Yeah, but Russian speakers would think you are a jew. ))) A surname that ends with -ovich is very common among the Jews.

Also among Serbians and Croatians I think (e.g. Milla Jovovich).

BTW

Так американское middle name и наше отчество - две совершенно разные вещи!

http://www.trworkshop.net/forum/viewtop ... 645#p61645
American middle name and Russian patronymic name are totally different things.

Originally Posted by Tamerlane

damn- i feel like an idiot for not speaking russian. i feel like i am changing my name out of complete ignorance if i dont at least know the cyrillic alphabet.

I couldn't agree more.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Yeah, but Russian speakers would think you are a jew. ))) A surname that ends with -ovich is very common among the Jews.

i'll be honest with you- i have never met a jew with a last name that ended in ovich- usually they have german names like greenberg, stein, goldman, and if they do have russian names it almost always (From my expierence) ends in sky or ski. ovich as the end of a surname from what i have seen is more typical of yugoslavians (milosovich, filopovich, blagojevich, malkovich etc.)

Vasìlyevich (Васильевич) can't be a surname. The surname would be Василевич - without the "ь" and with another stress.

Another examples (patronymic - surname):
Григорьевич - Григорович
Михайлович - Михайлович
Максимович - Максимович
Адамович - Адамович
etc.

hello

^^above

Originally Posted by Tamerlane

since my fathers name is not russian (Jeffery) would it be possible to just russify the patrinomic? as in Yefreyevich or something like that?

The patronymic from Jeffrey would be Джеф(ф)ревич/Jeffrevich (second 'ф' is optional), but it sounds a little off. I'd use some Russian name that can be a (rough) equivalent of Jeffrey, say a nice Russian name Ефрем (Yefrem): Ефремович/Yefremovich.

hello

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