Thread: Frustrated with Russian cases...

I'm using The New Penguin Russian Course, Living Language Beginners Russian, and Schaum's Russian Grammar.

I know all of the cases' functions and I can understand a Russian sentence if I recognize the words used. The problem comes about when I want to translate a longer sentence in English, to Russian, and there are so many cases, that even if I remember their endings, I still get confused because I forget which case goes with which word, etc.

I know what each case does, it's just the fact that in a long sentence, I have to take every word and change it... it's just too much and it totally messes me up. Not to mention, I don't have to do this too much in English (we only have like, two cases, and their the same most of the time and we don't have to match them up to gender, except for in pronouns like "he" "him" "she" "her"... so it's realllllyyyy easy).

It just seems like Russian has too much add-ons when it comes to grammar for me to deal with. I have to worry about gender, having all of the other words agree with that gender, if it's plural or not, and then I have to add cases to all of that. It's alot to deal with and I have no idea how to manage all of that. I always get the practice problems right in my books, it's when it comes to real life situations such as talking on the phone, or even typing this message, that seems a little crazy and a bit overboard.

Originally Posted by Nichole.

The problem comes about when I want to translate a longer sentence in English, to Russian,

I think translating from English to Russian should be way down on your to do list. Work from Russian to English and you'll slowly pick up cases. I think the only way to become comfortable with the endings is massive exposure, memorization is not effective. We're talking years here, it's a long term project.

You'll be disappointed after reading this, so be prepared! Ultimately you have to learn each verb individually. You have to learn which case and which preposition(s) to use with which verb.

Take this example: the verb "помочь/помогать" (to help). It obviously requires direct object: when you help someone, you're doing the act of helping directly to him/her. So you would expect it to take the accusative case. Well, it doesn't. It takes the dative: помочь кому-нибудь.

That's not just one exception to the general rule. There are many more. The only way is to learn verbs one by one: their meaning, their conjugation, the cases and prepositions they take, etc, etc.

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

You'll be disappointed after reading this, so be prepared! Ultimately you have to learn each verb individually. You have to learn which case and which preposition(s) to use with which verb.

Well it is just as prepositions in English.

Take this example: the verb "помочь/помогать" (to help). It obviously requires direct object: when you help someone, you're doing the act of helping directly to him/her. So you would expect it to take the accusative case. Well, it doesn't. It takes the dative: помочь кому-нибудь.

Nope. It is quite logical dative. If you help me then you give me help. You generally do not act directly on me, but on some other object for my sake.

Grammar is the way of thinking.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Nope. It is quite logical dative. If you help me then you give me help. You generally do not act directly on me, but on some other object for my sake.

Funny enough, even in my native Persian, the verb for helping is said to be "transitive to indirect object". And it doesn't make sense to me. "To help" is not different from "to kiss" in that they're both performed directly. Well, you could "give someone a kiss", but that doesn't make the verb indirect.

Grammar is the way of thinking.

So what? Should I take my hat off to grammar? Well, I won't do that to Russian grammar!

But you don't usually help someone by acting on him directly. You kiss the girl (which is a pretty direct action on the girl ), but you may help someone by doing all kinds of things elsewhere, but not directly to the person themselves.

It's not a transitive verb in German (where there is no such thing as "transitive to the indirect object") and it is "transitive to the indirect object" in English as well, as you can make a passive sentence: I helped him -> he was helped. No such luck in German. I don't know any Indo-European language in which the verb for "help" is transitive.

Originally Posted by Misha Tal

So what? Should I take my hat off to grammar? Well, I won't do that to Russian grammar!

In Iran you take your hat off to grammar, in Russia grammar takes your head off.

Originally Posted by sperk

I think the only way to become comfortable with the endings is massive exposure, memorization is not effective. We're talking years here, it's a long term project.

Pretty much. I have been at it for 6 years and I am still crap at it. Just be glad that Russian has only 6 cases and not 15 like Finnish, I know I am!