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Thread: Need help on cases

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    Старший оракул tohca's Avatar
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    Need help on cases

    У Наташи есть два маленьких сына.
    У Наташи есть - accusative?
    два маленьких сына - genetive?
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    Завсегдатай Ramil's Avatar
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    Re: Need help on cases

    Quote Originally Posted by tohca
    У Наташи есть два маленьких сына.
    У Наташи есть - accusative?
    два маленьких сына - genetive?
    It's nominative since it's the subject of the sentence. In English it would be the other way around:
    Natasha has two little sons, but if you literally translate this sentence it would be something like this:
    Two little sons there are by Natasha.
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    Re: Need help on cases

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramil
    Quote Originally Posted by tohca
    У Наташи есть два маленьких сына.
    У Наташи есть - accusative?
    два маленьких сына - genetive?
    It's nominative since it's the subject of the sentence. In English it would be the other way around:
    Natasha has two little sons, but if you literally translate this sentence it would be something like this:
    Two little sons there are by Natasha.
    Thanks for the reply, but am not clear about it.
    If it is nominative, then should it be:
    У Наташа есть два маленькие сыны?
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    I know I've read this before but why is маленьких in genitive?
    Вот это да, я так люблю себя. И сегодня я люблю себя, ещё больше чем вчера, а завтра я буду любить себя to ещё больше чем сегодня. Тем что происходит,я вполне доволен!

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    Старший оракул tohca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogboy182
    I know I've read this before but why is маленьких in genitive?
    The statement is taken from exercise 10/6 of the New Penguin Russian Course.
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    Both 'Natasha' and 'sons' are in genitive, imho.

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    Старший оракул tohca's Avatar
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    Sorry to say, but I am just as confused about the cases of the statement as I was before asking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
    Both 'Natasha' and 'sons' are in genitive, imho.
    I understand why Natasha is in Genitive. I don't get...

    y наташи есть два маленькие сыны ?

    or at least Маленьких сынов ?
    Вот это да, я так люблю себя. И сегодня я люблю себя, ещё больше чем вчера, а завтра я буду любить себя to ещё больше чем сегодня. Тем что происходит,я вполне доволен!

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    I understand why Natasha is in Genitive. I don't get...
    y наташи есть два маленькие сыны ?
    or at least Маленьких сынов ?
    The first one (y наташи есть два маленькие сыны) is wrong.
    "Сынов" (as plural) sounds bad, I'd advise to use "сыновей", which needs another form of numeral "two" - "двое".
    So (another) grammatically correct phrase is:
    У Наташи двое маленьких сыновей.

    Quote Originally Posted by tohca
    Sorry to say, but I am just as confused about the cases of the statement as I was before asking.
    Believe me, it can be confusing for native speakers as well. They use the correct case intuitively,but to explain it (or even determine what case it is) is another matter.

    There're a lot of rules conserning the numerals declension (or declension of 'numeral+noun' pairs).
    But I think, I found the rule you need:
    6. При сочетании с числительными два, три, четыре имена существительные получают форму родительного падежа единственного числа (два стола, три двери), а при сочетании с числительными пять, шесть и др. существительные получают форму родительного падежа множественного числа (пять столов, шесть дверей).
    http://www.lingvotech.com/zelchislit

    I.e. in this case the numeral ("two", which is in nominative, as far as I can tell) controls the associated noun's case ("sons"), turning it into genitive, according to the rule above. Adjective "little" just passively adopts the 'sons' case (genitive).

    Correct me, if I'm wrong, please.

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    Старший оракул tohca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
    Believe me, it can be confusing for native speakers as well. They use the correct case intuitively,but to explain it (or even determine what case it is) is another matter.

    There're a lot of rules conserning the numerals declension (or declension of 'numeral+noun' pairs).
    But I think, I found the rule you need:
    6. При сочетании с числительными два, три, четыре имена существительные получают форму родительного падежа единственного числа (два стола, три двери), а при сочетании с числительными пять, шесть и др. существительные получают форму родительного падежа множественного числа (пять столов, шесть дверей).
    http://www.lingvotech.com/zelchislit

    I.e. in this case the numeral ("two", which is in nominative, as far as I can tell) controls the associated noun's case ("sons"), turning it into genitive, according to the rule above. Adjective "little" just passively adopts the 'sons' case (genitive).

    Correct me, if I'm wrong, please.
    That's a consolation. And it's true with other languages too. Most native English speakers can't explain their grammar too.
    The web site you are referring to is too advanced for me at this moment, thank you.
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    Перечитав эту часть "New Penguin", оказолось что забыл несколько важных правил про употребление "Номеры 2 3 4" с Adjectives and nouns.

    Спасибо за мотивацию, Зесочка!

    The web site you are referring to is too advanced for me at this moment, thank you.
    Don't worry, it says the exact same thing is New Penguin book
    Вот это да, я так люблю себя. И сегодня я люблю себя, ещё больше чем вчера, а завтра я буду любить себя to ещё больше чем сегодня. Тем что происходит,я вполне доволен!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tocha
    The web site you are referring to is too advanced for me at this moment, thank you.
    The rule in my previous post says that after numerals 2, 3, 4 nouns should be in genitive singular (два сына, три стола, четыре дерева), and after numerals 5, 6, etc. nouns should be in genitive plural (пять сыновей, шесть столов, семь деревьев).

    Try to find in English any source that explains the declension of numerals. Basically after numerals the corresponding noun adopts genitive case. There are also a bunch of additional rules and exceptions, but your sentence is a simple example.

    Спасибо за мотивацию, Зесочка!
    Всегда пожалуйста.

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    Старший оракул tohca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
    The rule in my previous post says that after numerals 2, 3, 4 nouns should be in genitive singular (два сына, три стола, четыре дерева), and after numerals 5, 6, etc. nouns should be in genitive plural (пять сыновей, шесть столов, семь деревьев).

    Try to find in English any source that explains the declension of numerals. Basically after numerals the corresponding noun adopts genitive case. There are also a bunch of additional rules and exceptions, but your sentence is a simple example.
    I understand that part about numbers well, as it was explained quite clearly in the New Penguin. However I am still not sure about the cases in the subject question:
    У Наташи есть два маленьких сына.

    In the first part of the sentence, "У Наташи есть", Ramil said it is nominative, and it should be so because that's the subject. But then why "Наташи" and not "Наташа"?

    два маленьких сына - genetive?
    I am ok with this part.
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    Ramil said it is nominative, and it should be so because that's the subject.
    I'm not sure it's a subject. Looks like an object to me. I see it this way (again, please, correct me, if anybody has a better and correct-er explaination ):
    Два маленьких сына есть у Наташи.

    (кто?)Два маленьких сына - a subject (note, that "два" is in nominative, "маленьких сына" is in genitive only because numeral declension interfers).
    (что делают?) есть - a predicate
    у Наташи - an (indirect) object

    Anyway, У + noun = genitive:
    Он стоял у дерева.
    У него красивые глаза.
    Она живет у родителей.

    Наташа имеет два маленьких сына - Natasha is nom.
    У Наташи есть два маленьких сына - Natasha is gen.

    I don't know, why. Maybe, because it's possession?
    (Russian native speakers usually make simple question check:
    (у) кого/чего? - У Наташи -> gen.*
    but for RSL learners it probably won't work )

    *
    Именительный Кто? Что?
    Родительный Кого? Чего?
    Дательный Кому? Чему?
    Винительный Кого? Что?
    Творительный Кем? Чем?
    Предложный О ком? О чём?

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    Старший оракул tohca's Avatar
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    Thanks it is clearer now. However your point about:
    Два маленьких сына - a subject
    I think this is not correct, not in the subject sentence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tohca
    However your point about: Два маленьких сына - a subject
    I think this is not correct, not in the subject sentence.
    Er... What's a subject sentence?
    Anyway, I'm 99% sure "У Наташи" is indirect object, so I don't see any other candidate for a subject, except of "sons".

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    Старший оракул tohca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
    Quote Originally Posted by tohca
    However your point about: Два маленьких сына - a subject
    I think this is not correct, not in the subject sentence.
    Er... What's a subject sentence?
    Anyway, I'm 99% sure "У Наташи" is indirect object, so I don't see any other candidate for a subject, except of "sons".
    The subject sentence:
    У Наташи есть два маленьких сына. Natasha has two small sons. From New Penguin Ex. 10/6 #18.

    I think Наташа is the subject. However, because of 'у' as in 'У Наташи' the ending has to conform to the genetive case. Nevertheless it is still the subject. If this is not the case, then I am one very confused student.
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    У Наташи есть два маленьких сына =
    There are two little sons by Natasha (at Natasha's place).

    У Наташи = ~by Natasha, at Natasha's place
    есть = there are
    два маленьких сына = two little sons

    We don't say "I have, Natasha has", etc. We say "у меня есть, у Наташи есть..." etc.

    "I has a car". We say: At me (at my place) there is a car (У меня есть машина).
    In Russian, all nationalities and their corresponding languages start with a lower-case letter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Оля
    У Наташи есть два маленьких сына =
    There are two little sons by Natasha (at Natasha's place).
    They are not "at her place". It means she's their mother.
    Former is обстоятельство места. Latter is дополнение (вроде бы). Both are expressed with the preposition "y" in Russian, but have different meaning.

    PS. Ok, I reread Olya's post and now I see thet it was some kind of creative explanation. Hmm... An overstretch, maybe, but if it helps...
    I'm still wating for TATY or Chaika. I think, they can explain it better in English. They are good in grammar.

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    Старший оракул tohca's Avatar
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    Thanks Оля and gRomoZeka. I am having a bad headache now, need to take a break from all this grammar. Will attempt again when my head clears.
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